Feeding advice needed please

[ba]

Hi,

as some of you know I have had a few ongoing problems with my horse and I am now looking to overhaul his feeding regime.

He suffers with recurrent colic, he has had specialist investigations which are all NAD. All bloods, worm counts and Gastroscopy were unremarkable.
I believe he needs a non cereal high fibre diet and whilst he is a good doer he has become picky over his food. I recently tried him on Fibre-Beet but he would'nt touch it and I have resorted to lacing his food with pure molasses which I do not want to do long term. He is currently on Top Spec Anti-Lam and Top Chop Lite however he now refuses to eat the chop. He also won't eat Speedi-Beet. Help! I don't want to keep changing his feed but need something highly palatable that is also high in fibre and if required can be soaked to provide hydration when he is colicky or at times of colic risk.
I also give him Succeed, Fennel and Happy Tum - Charcoal. He will not touch Mycosorb A+ under any circumstances!
he is out 24/7 on a sparse paddock and has ad-lib hay of average quality. He can come in if needed and is stabled at times of very bad weather and when colicking for monitoring.
He is a 14.2hh heavy weight cob and weighs 530kg, he is currently hacked out for 1 hour twice a week, in the summer he is ridden for about 2 hours 5 days a week with the odd dressage comp.
I have emailed ALL the feed companies and have been disappointed with their recommendations although a few have yet to reply. I have also emailed an indepednant Nurtitionist and am awaiting a reply.

Can anyone offer me any advice or point me in the direction of someone who can? I am happy to pay for an independent assessment. I would be keen to hear of any research based advice if anyone knows of any.

Thank you in advance.

[southerncomfort]

Have you tried Allen & Page's Fast Fibre? Most horses find it delicious and can be made as wet and sloppy as you like.

[ba]

Thank you southerncomfort, do you have experience of using fast fibre with colicky horses? with 5% starch and nutritionally improved straw as a main ingrediant im not sure its the best to feed my boy. I am looking to make a positive and full change to my horse's feeding programme rather than trying lots of different things which arent quite 'right' nutritionally, which is a trap i seem to have recently fallen into.

What do people here think about Simple Systems feeds? so far out of all the rseponses ive had their's seems to make the most sense! but of course they are trying to sell their products so I would appreciate some impartial advice or personal experiences.

Im finding all of this a bit of a minefield!

[antares]

Haven't tried simple systems but hear good things about it.

Have you thought about forage plus? Just a balancer with no fillers but you have to find something tasty to mix it with. My very fussy eater started off turning his nose up at it so I hid it in something else and gradually reduced that until he just got the balancer plus micronised linseed

[mags]

Could you be a bit more specific in what you are trying to achieve with the bucket feed?
Ad-lib hay is certainly a good starting point. What is it that you want to add with the bucket feed? Is your focus on added calories/weight gain? Is it to get specific supplements into him (succeed etc.), or to feed a mineral supplement/balancer? Is hydration critical (does it need to be soaked)?

If his weight is good, one option for a cereal-free high fibre diet is to feed him hay only. If he is on ad-lib hay, there's really no need to feed extra fibre in the form of a bucket feed, just for the sake of feeding more fibre. Do you have a reason to be concerned if he doesn't get a bucket feed at all?

If he doesn't like the chop, you could try feeding him his balancer straight. It's a small feed, and he has plenty of fibre from the ad-lib hay, so I wouldn't expect this to cause any problems. Balancers (particularly those for good doers like Antilam) are designed to be fed alone, in addition to forage. If the TopSpec brand isn't to his taste, you could see if the feed companies will send you taste samples. Maybe you could find one that suits him better?

If you are trying to hide supplements (succeed, charcoal, fennel), you could try grass nuts or alfalfa pellets, either soaked or slightly moistened (to stick supplements to them). That's as close to an all-fibre diet as you're likely to get and you'll know exactly what it is you're feeding.

Hope that is helpful. Good luck!

[southerncomfort]

Jan 29, 2015 15:03:20 GMT 1 ba said:

Thank you southerncomfort, do you have experience of using fast fibre with colicky horses? with 5% starch and nutritionally improved straw as a main ingrediant im not sure its the best to feed my boy. I am looking to make a positive and full change to my horse's feeding programme rather than trying lots of different things which arent quite 'right' nutritionally, which is a trap i seem to have recently fallen into.

What do people here think about Simple Systems feeds? so far out of all the rseponses ive had their's seems to make the most sense! but of course they are trying to sell their products so I would appreciate some impartial advice or personal experiences.

Im finding all of this a bit of a minefield!

I haven't but if you look here at the reviews


www.yourhorse.co.uk/Gear-reviews/Search-Results/For-Your-Horse/Search-Results/Feed-supplements-and-treats/Allen--Page-Fast-Fibre/

you can see that other people have used it when other feedstuffs have been a cause of colic. It is highly digestible.

My mare dropped weight on SS feeds but that may just be her as I know other people really rate their products.

[janwilky]

Jan 29, 2015 16:22:55 GMT 1 mags said:

If you are trying to hide supplements (succeed, charcoal, fennel), you could try grass nuts or alfalfa pellets, either soaked or slightly moistened (to stick supplements to them). That's as close to an all-fibre diet as you're likely to get and you'll know exactly what it is you're feeding.

This would be my suggestion too. Grass nuts are a bit higher in sugar than beet or Fast Fibre but I find my heavyweight cob (very good doer) is absolutely fine on them as a carrier for his supplements. I don't need to feed much, just a mugful with some linseed (I feed about half a mug of linseed and also half a mug of copra but only because he loves it and my other two get it). He was fine on alfalfa pellets too, but I prefer the grass nuts as they are as close as possible to a natural grazing diet as long as your horse can tolerate grass. If you can get hold of them, the Emerald Green brand are lower in sugar than some of the others, and I believe they are non rye-grass too.

Some sensitive horses don't get on too well with beet, no-one seems to know why (or at least there are no credible studies) but my two geldings both have gut sensitivities and they both improved when I removed beet from their diets. I only took them off it because Lucas doesn't like it and was refusing to eat it, but I was surprised to find they both improved without it. My mare wasn't affected in the same way though, so it seems to be an individual thing but I know of several other owners of sensitive horses who do better without it. Beet is also in FF of course, so if he doesn't like beet he most probably won't like FF - Lucas used to kick the blooming bucket right across the yard until I realised it was the FF/beet he didn't like! The useful thing about grass nuts is they are highly palatable and, as mags says, they can be fed soaked or just dampened to a crumble.

Re the Mycosorb, did you try starting with just a really tiny amount? The first time I put a teaspoonful in Lucas's feed he leapt in the air and ran across the yard snorting and smacking his lips in horror!! I had to go right back and start with a 1 ml spoon, which is only 1/5th of a teaspoonful. He ate that with just a withering look, but within a week or so I'd got him up to the full dose (10ml - 2 teaspoons) and now he eats it happily.  It's definitely helped him so it was worth persevering.

If you still need more ideas it might be worth having a look at the Diet section on the Phoenixhorse forum, as there are quite a few people on there with sensitive horses and lots of experience so it might be worth posting on there as well as here.

Good luck with him

[lesleyking1]

He sounds an interesting case but a bit of a worry for you. Do you want to give him more feed than you need to just get his supplements in him. I am assuming that his colic is not triggered by his grass/hay, what does trigger it, is it when you are introducing feeds, is it seasonal; flush of lush grass etc. If he is stable with just forage then why worry about feeds, if you find something that can be fed in a small amount to carry his supplements or a balancer (I think you should feed a balancer to ensure all nutrient levels if you are not feeding a recommended a amount of feed) then do you feel ok about not giving him 'meals'.
I feed Allen and Page veterans to my young TB, she had to have as much sugar removed from her diet as possible and they seemed the most honest company I could find when we researched sugar levels, but their other products she found boring, the veterans has herbs in to make it palatable. On our yard lots are moving over to A&P, those that are on it are all doing so well, most horses on the yard are Cobby types with the odd TB type, the rep has advised us that the good doers go on FF if they will eat it, if not and for the finer types go on veterans, it is the same constitutes with the flavourings for older horses that get fussy, she says use it as a base and add in the other products according to work etc.
what did your vet say about feeds, let's us know what the nutritionist says

[lesleyking1]

He sounds an interesting case but a bit of a worry for you. Do you want to give him more feed than you need to just get his supplements in him. I am assuming that his colic is not triggered by his grass/hay, what does trigger it, is it when you are introducing feeds, is it seasonal; flush of lush grass etc. If he is stable with just forage then why worry about feeds, if you find something that can be fed in a small amount to carry his supplements or a balancer (I think you should feed a balancer to ensure all nutrient levels if you are not feeding a recommended a amount of feed) then do you feel ok about not giving him 'meals'.
I feed Allen and Page veterans to my young TB, she had to have as much sugar removed from her diet as possible and they seemed the most honest company I could find when we researched sugar levels, but their other products she found boring, the veterans has herbs in to make it palatable. On our yard lots are moving over to A&P, those that are on it are all doing so well, most horses on the yard are Cobby types with the odd TB type, the rep has advised us that the good doers go on FF if they will eat it, if not and for the finer types go on veterans, it is the same constitutes with the flavourings for older horses that get fussy, she says use it as a base and add in the other products according to work etc.
what did your vet say about feeds, let's us know what the nutritionist says

[aljinks]

Hi I feed my horses on pure feed. All our horses love the feed even our more fussy horses.its a well balanced feed.They have a selection of feeds to suit all horses needs.

[ba]

Thank you so much for all the replies!

Antares - who makes Forage Plus, I dont think i've researched that one yet, I would be keen to compare it to the Top Spec balancer I am currently using.

Mags - sorry, i probably didn't esplain my self very well in my original post. My reason for wishing to use a bucket feed is for a few reasons:
1) To balance to changable quality of forage my horse receieves
2) To get more fluids into him
3) To use as a carrier for his supplements
4) To ensure he recieves all the Vits & Mins he should - hence the use of a balancer
5) It is useful for me to have a feed that can be soaked if required so that I can give him the water from the soaking process at times of mild colic
He doesn't need to gain weight but he does needs a little help with his stamina, more than hay can provide.
I have contacted a few feed companies again and seperate to my feed advice request and asked for a few samples to try him on, thank for this idea. It seems an abvious thing to do now but I hadn't thought of it!
The grass nuts/alfafa pellets is a good idea, my only concern is that grass brings on colic for him (hence the Mycosorb and Charcoal) I wonder if the nuts would cause the same response? I will do some more investigation into this

Southerncomfort - thank you for your advice and the link, i hope this doesn't sound 'snobby' and I dont mean it to, but i might as well be honest. I don't really hold much weight in the your horse mag website or its review pages. I find the magazine a little outdated! sorry if anyone here really likes it, some articles are very good, but i find the feeding/winter care/stable management advice doesn't take a fullly balanced view and is a little 'old school' there i've said it! I can see how weight loss could be a problem with SS feeds as it is just forage with not much calorie content, although i believe that greater volumes can be fed, this doesn't suit every horse. I dont think my boy would have a problem with weight loss.

Janwilky - It's interesting to hear of your experiences with the dreaded Mycosorb! Yes is did try just a teeny little grain of the stuff and he ran to the back of the stable before id even opened the door. I tried everything, even soaking it in molasses. I just couldn't get it down him! Do you have any knowledge of the use of Charcoal as a subsititue to Mycosorb? Succeed also has a little bit of toxin binder in it, I had a big problem with this to begin with but he will eat it now, although not very enthusiastically!
I will check out the Pheonixhorse forum - thank you

Lesleyking1 - yes he is a little interesting! he was supposed to be my no nonsense, hardy, hassle free cob and ive spent more money on vets bills in the 3 years ive had him than on all my other horses put together! His colic is triggered by a number of things really, he has had a standard impaction colic, colic after being turned out in a new field (although it was next door to the field he was previously in and the grass wasn't rich or long), he once started with colic while i was riding him on a gentle hack around the woods, found him with colic one morning in the field, he colicked the last time we had snow too. Its very random, he always passes droppings, even when impacted as its always a one sided impaction, he also gets gassy and spasmodic colic.

aljinks - thank you I will have a look at the pure feeds website today.

To make things a little more complicated - or less dependeing on your point of view. last night and this morning he ate the Fibre beet! Last night i put the fibre-beet in a bucket on its own and then his balancer with carrots, mint, fennel, charcaol and a teeny bit of top chop grass (rather than the lite which he hates)in a seperate bucket and put them both in his stable. He ate the fibre-beet first a licked the bowl clean, he than picked at the balancer and left about half of it.

This morning i put the fibre-beet in one bucket and in the other bucket i put just the balancer and carrots - he ate the balancer and carrots first then ate the fibre-beet. This was loose in the field, normally he will sniff his breakfast and walk away and i'll have to catch him to get him to eat any and he just picks at it and then begs for his fieldmates breakfast! his head didn't come out of the buckets this morning!

Sorry this is so long, any advice welcomed, i would ideally like to feed him as naural a diet as possible. One that is free from as many processed feeds as i can. I must add that as well as being digestively compromised he is also an itchy horse - although i believe that the two are strongly linked, therefore i am mindful what I feed him. I would love to try SS feeds, however practicality has to also come into the equation and my nearist stockist is over an hours drive away, to collect feed this would easily be a 2.5hr round trip and due to my working hours and their opening hors i would only be able to go on a saturday morning.

The more i learn about horse feeds the more confused I get, I have a little bit too much knowledge to be able to blindly try him on just 'anything' but no where near enough knowledge to know what to do for the best!

Thank you all for getting this far and for your words of wisdom :-)

[clipclop]

There are a few things that strike me from your post.

You mention that you have varying quality forage. This would concern me as his forage intake will be far higher than bucket feed intake so an inconsistent supply will not be ideal. Imo you need to find a reliable supplier of good hay. When I say 'good' hay, I mean clean and with a good variety of grasses (preferably a high percentage of timothy grass) rather than rich hay or with a lot if ryegrass. Swapping and changing forage supplies is as bad as swapping and changing hard feed imo. If it is unavoidable, be sure to change over gradually.

Later in your post you mention 'random' colic episodes. Aside from the episode when out hacking (and there may be other details not mentioned that could suggest a link), all the episodes have been grazing based. Even next door paddocks can vary greatly so the fresh grazing colic could be hopefully prevented in future by strip grazing and allowing restricted access to fresh grazing. The snow causing colic is very common - any grass available is frozen and full of fructans, the hay intake suddenly increases and if living out, access to water is likely to be restricted due to frozen troughs.

As an aside, if he's an itchy horse then I'd personally avoid alfalfa. I also personally am not a fan of grass nuts or the grass chops - the grass is grown with a lot of nitrates as fertiliser and then flash dried so retain the sugar levels of spring grass. It really sounds as though he only really needs a balancer in terms of hard feed. By all means add a chop such as a timothy chop or even rowen and barbary fibre mash if you're concerned about hydration but don't try to over complicate matters.

I'm sorry if it sounds blunt but I think that you are focusing too much on hard feed/bucket feed and that you won't succeed in reducing his colic episodes unless you look at the bigger picture - how sparse is his grazing? In theory, impaction is usually caused by lack of fibre (or unsuitable fibre such as eating straw beds) and/or not taking in enough fluids. If his grazing is so sparse that he's not getting enough fibre, is he eating plants/hedges that are unsuitable for horses? How much hay to do supplement him with? Does he get his fair share or does he get bullied away by his companion? Is his water supply easily accessible? Is there a badly poached area or electric fencing close by that make him reluctant to go to the trough? Is it cleaned regularly? Again, does he get bullied away? What provisions do you put in place when the weather is frozen to ensure he can access water that is not ice cold?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards

[ba]

Thank you for taking the time to write such a helpful post clip clop, it's very much appreciated. I will try and answer your questions.

The hay is supplied by our yard owner and this is good quality, if she runs out she will buy in, this will vary in quality. If this happens I mix it in with the previous batch to introduce it slowly. He is on a practically bare paddock with ad lib hay, he is never without hay in the field. His paddock is basically one part of a large field that is divided by post and rail rather than electric tape. There are no trees or hedges in the field but there are a few tress outside the paddock along one fence line, a few branches are reachable but there is no evidence that he has ever eaten them. He is out with just one companion who doesn't bully him. He has access to water 24/7 which is refreshed completely when the trough is scrubbed every 2 days. No electric tape in the field as he walks through it, this also proves to be a problem if wanting to strip graze. If cold the Ice is broken 3 times a day on the water trough although it very rarely needs it. He is also brought to his stable everyday and has fresh water in there.

He has only had impaction colic twice, the rest have been gassy, spasmodic or of no known cause! 3 vets and a specialist are stumped so I'm not expecting a solution from here. I would just like to learn more about how to help him and I would like to be confident that I am managing him and feeding him the best I possibly can :-)

I have no problem with bluntness :-) everyday is a school day as far as I'm concerned.

[janwilky]

Jan 30, 2015 10:11:26 GMT 1 ba said:

Janwilky - It's interesting to hear of your experiences with the dreaded Mycosorb! Yes is did try just a teeny little grain of the stuff and he ran to the back of the stable before id even opened the door. I tried everything, even soaking it in molasses. I just couldn't get it down him! Do you have any knowledge of the use of Charcoal as a subsititue to Mycosorb? Succeed also has a little bit of toxin binder in it, I had a big problem with this to begin with but he will eat it now, although not very enthusiastically!
I will check out the Pheonixhorse forum - thank you

Lol he is obviously a discerning chap! I don't know why they dislike the Mycosorb so much, I can hardly taste it at all (I did try!) but they clearly can. I know one other (Taklishim on here, Pat on Phoenix) who resorted to molasses because she believed she really needed to try Mycosorb, and it did help hers so was worth persevering with. Lots of info on colic and mycotoxins on Phoenix - not that you can know that's responsible for your boy's colics, but it's a simple and cheap thing to try if you can only get them to eat the dratted stuff. I don't know if she'll come on here and comment, but Taklishim found that her problem was caused by one particular field - she could guarantee her horse would colic if she put him on it, but other horses were OK on the same field.

Charcoal is a generic toxin binder, so it might help if there are mycotoxins in the grass or hay. I guess it would be worth trying if he really won't eat the Mycosorb (which is specifically designed to adsorb mycotoxins and nothing else). You do need to be aware if you feed charcoal that some people believe it removes nutrients from the gut too, though others disagree with that. When I fed it, I just made sure I put their balancer in the morning feed and the charcoal in the evening, or vice versa. I didn't notice any improvement on charcoal personally, whereas the Mycosorb made a big and rapid difference, but others have found it helps. Of course charcoal might help if his problem is caused by some other kind of toxin.

The trees round his field aren't sycamores are they? Apologies if you've already ruled that out, I can't remember.

Clipclop gives good advice, and if your boy is sensitive to grass then grass nuts may not be the best thing to try. Personally I find mine are fine with them, whereas they weren't OK with beet - it's all very individual if you have sensitive ones I think, and I sympathise with your frustration as it's taken me years to work out what affects mine (it took me years to even work out that I had a gut problem, and then a lot longer to (hopefully) solve it!

Re balancers, you asked about Forageplus - they make a range of mineral balancers designed to complement UK grazing. They're not the cheapest, but they're top quality. I fed a FP balancer for quite a while and rated it (I'm not feeding it at the moment but that's a different story and not because I don't think the FP is good). It might be worth your while ringing Sarah Braithwaite at FP and asking her advice, she is very helpful if you speak to her forageplus.co.uk/. I've never fed TopSpec products but I know a lot of barefoot folk who say that their horses' feet don't do so well on TopSpec, and to my mind if the feet are not doing well it probably means the gut isn't happy with it either...

The more i learn about horse feeds the more confused I get, I have a little bit too much knowledge to be able to blindly try him on just 'anything' but no where near enough knowledge to know what to do for the best!

I know exactly how you feel, I've been on that learning curve for about five years now and sometimes I feel the more I learn the less I know

Just one last random thought, about palatability. I decided to try my two older pones on turmeric as it's a natural anti-inflammatory (& antibiotic) and a lot of people find it helps. I wasn't sure whether to feed it to Lucas, my younger, gut sensitive one. Most of what I read says it can be very helpful with gut issues but there were just a few indications that it could be problematic, and I didn't want to risk a setback... anyway in the end I decided to just give it to all three of them and see what happened (you have to feed it with black pepper and an oil or micronised linseed). To my huge surprise, Lucas the fusspot cob loves, loves, loves the taste of it! He stands there for ages and licks his bucket until it's polished, and then goes and licks the others' buckets clean too. He now has a yellow 'tache, and I have a magic yellow powder that I can hopefully use to disguise any yucky supplements I in my wisdom decide he needs! I've no idea if it's helping him, but it isn't harming him and his tummy is fine with it - he's very relaxed and happy at the moment, so perhaps it is helping. And I think the two older ones are both looking more fluid in their movement - I'm sufficiently impressed to have started taking it myself, here's hoping it helps my stiff back.

Jeez, sorry for such a long post

[lesleyking1]

If the causes of colic are out of your control as in pasture management and yo supplying hay, you might have to consider changing yards. My friend has a mare who has various problems with her horse that are all down to how the yo manages the turnout, changing fields and when they all come in and out, one of the issues is colic when the grass is rich, which she can manage as long as the muzzle stays on, if horse gets it off then she has a big problem, I have told her for ages that her horse could be healthier elsewhere but she loves the yard, now after another issue this week she is finally thinking it's time to go. Have you tried looking round to see if other yards could fix your problems.