copper deficiency

[lesleyking1]

my chestnut mare develops pale patches when she molts her summer coat, these start round the pastern fetlock area and then appear along her lower flanks, not very big; 10p size and spaced about 4 or 5 inches apart, no more than a colour change, no dry skin or irritations. She is 7 now and I've had her 3 years, this has happened every autumn. Apart from these spots she is 100%, in fact looks fantastic.

My instructor noticed them and commented that she thought she could be copper deficient and I should give her a supplement. I have trawled on-line and found that copper can effect coats but not described like this and also found that giving copper can effect uptake of other minerals.

So all my experts what do you think?

[Deleted]

Copper is deficient in the majority of UK grazing and hay/haylages, along with magnesium and zinc.

Minerals should be balanced to eachother, so copper, zinc, manganese and iron are grouped should be fed in a set ratio, while magnesium, phosphorus and calcium need to be in the correct ratio. In reality UK forages usually supply more than enough iron and manganese, so most horses need copper and zinc to balance this out. As ever though, one rule doesn't fit all.

Basically, you can either get your forage analysed and get someone like forageplus, or a barefoot trimmer who has done the NRC+ course, to balance the minerals for you. Otherwise you need to feed a balancer which provides the minerals in the correct ratio to eachother. In my opinion Forageplus offer the best and highest spec balancers available, if you compare the levels of minerals they contain to any of the main brands like dodson and horrell, top spec or spillers it's laughable what the others are selling you. Please don't go adding copper, or other minerals (with the exception of magnesium oxide or chloride) without getting advice as you can do a lot of harm by over dosing.

[lesleyking1]

my thoughts exactly, I wouldn't add anything unless I trusted the advice of an expert.

has anyone else seen this type of coat change?

[janwilky]

Not specifically, but Lucas - black cob - used to go dark brown in the summer before I started feeding a good mineral supplement (along the lines that Michelle describes).  Since then he's been properly black in the summer, and interestingly he was blacker the second year than he was the first after I started supplementing copper. He also lost the reddish tinge he used to get to his mane.  I had my grass and hay analysed and we were spectacularly low in copper, especially the hay which had virtually none. 

If Forageplus is a bit expensive for you, you could also look at Equivita (www.equinatural.co.uk/mineralbalancing) which uses the less expensive sulphate versions of copper, zinc etc compared to the bioplex (yeast-bound) versions in Forageplus and one or two others. The jury is still out on whether the bioplex minerals are better, but they're more expensive and a lot of people find that the sulphate versions are fine or even better. They're both good products, and if you do have a copper deficiency you should see an improvement next summer. 

[lesleyking1]

I had read about this coat rusting, classic of copper deficiency. Locally I have found it difficult to find a hay merchant whose hay stays the same, i.e. it's obvious it's grown in different fields or even areas so I have always assumed it would be a waste of time getting it analysed as it's too varied, or am I wrong?

[janwilky]

I'd probably go for one of the pre-mixed versions that are formulated for 'typical' UK deficiencies, in your position. You can then see if it makes a difference, and if not perhaps consider a higher spec one or talk to Sarah at Forageplus.

I did go the testing route initially with mine, but then I changed hay supplier, and had a new horse, and made changes to my grass and it no longer made sense. I also began to suspect that how efficiently a horse assimilates nutrients in its food varies from horse to horse according to gut health and other factors, and I wasn't entirely convinced I wasn't wasting expensive minerals. I actually saw an improvement when I dropped from the high levels I'd been feeding to the lower levels in an off-the-shelf Forageplus balancer, so I don't think it's automatically the case that bespoke is best.

[jen1]

isn't dolomite copper? Pat Colby recommends using it,

[janwilky]

Nov 20, 2014 13:35:39 GMT 1 jen1 said:

isn't dolomite copper? Pat Colby recommends using it,

Dolomite is calcium magnesium carbonate. It's used as a source of magnesium oxide. Other minerals can be found in tiny amounts as impurities, but I wouldn't have thought it could be a significant source of copper.

[portiabuzz]

We are very lucky to have Jan

Sent from my SM-G800F using proboards

[Pony-Nutt]

Chestnuts are reputed to need the most copper.
If you are going to supplement her with copper you need to balance it with zinc in the correct ratio.
If you dont want to go down the forage analysis route then a supplement with copper in would be your best bet.
Any of the ready made supplements for feet would be a good start. The is one called Pro Hoof sold by Pro Earth on ebay or there is Farriers Formula or Forageplus do a winter balancer that would supply copper in the right ratio to zinc so that you dont get rid of one problem but replace it with another one.
In the meantime seaweed is a good all round additive for feed and I do know it is good for pigmentation.

[Deleted]

I have to disagree about seaweed. It is proportionally very high in iodine and iron - two minerals which are rarely lacking in horses diets. If you fed them enough seaweed to give them the recommended daily dose of copper you'd poison them with iodine. According to Dr Kellon there are no, as in ZERO, proven cases of diet related iron deficiency in horses and there is a body of evidence that excess iron damages the liver.

If you've had a forage analysis done which shows they need it then fair enough, but otherwise I would not advise it. Far safer to feed one of the other options suggested, like pro hoof, forageplus etc.

[specialized]

Surely if it was a deficiency it wouldn't just occur with a coat change, it would be there all the time?

[lesleyking1]

Specialised I have been thinking the same, I was advised about a deficiency when she started to moult and these spots don't show at any other time, I would be mad to start thinking she has deficiencies in her hoof because she has always had fantastic feet, especially as a barefoot TB and generally she is in fantastic form, now that her moult has settled and she is in her winter coat she looks great, deep colour and very glossy but these spots on her fetlock won't go now till she moults through to her summer coat. So as specialised asks, do deficiencies come to light during seasonal coat changes and I've concluded after reading that copper deficiency would normally make much more obvious signs then perhaps I need not worry.
Our local feed merchant is having an open night and my feed company will be there so I'm going to have a chat with them about this issue, see what they suggest as they advised I put her on a veteran feed when she didn't like the first one recommended, she is 7 but they assured me the veteran was identical other than having herbs in to make it more palatable, she does like it much more, but worth asking if it is low on minerals for younger working horses.

[Pony-Nutt]

Nov 21, 2014 10:40:23 GMT 1 @michellep said:

I have to disagree about seaweed. It is proportionally very high in iodine and iron - two minerals which are rarely lacking in horses diets. If you fed them enough seaweed to give them the recommended daily dose of copper you'd poison them with iodine. According to Dr Kellon there are no, as in ZERO, proven cases of diet related iron deficiency in horses and there is a body of evidence that excess iron damages the liver.

If you've had a forage analysis done which shows they need it then fair enough, but otherwise I would not advise it. Far safer to feed one of the other options suggested, like pro hoof, forageplus etc.

I have had two grass analysis done. One at our last place where seaweed was advised including for my pregnant mare and here, totally different area and only one mile inland from the sea and here too seaweed is recommended even for my pregnant mare

[janwilky]

We were low in iodine here too when I had my grass analysis done and I feed a pinch of seaweed in each feed - primarily for iodine though.

OP could the patches on your mare's coat be simply natural colour variation if her coat is otherwise healthy? I have seen pics of chestnut horses who have completely changed colour when they've started on a mineral supplement, but if yours is a deep and shiny red already perhaps you don't need to be worrying about it?