BEGGING FOR HELP - SERIOUS BUT UNEXPECTED MOUNTING ISSUES

[snow2908]

I've got a few major issues that I really need help with, I'm lost.

I'm a 14 year old girl that has been riding for 10 years, I've had a variety of different horses on loan, ex eventers, youngsters, I even did all the prep work in order for one particular 5 year old stubborn and quite frankly dangerous horse to be backed, nothing has ever phased me - until now.

To cut a long story short, at the end of August 2013 I was lucky enough to get my first horse. Her name is Snow White, she's a 15.1hh Connemara mare who has literally just turned 7. I bought her from a dealer (oh dear) which turned out to be a bit of a mistake in the long run to say the least! During my first week of ownership I uncovered many issues with Snow such as:
- I was unable to catch her, it took 4 people a good hour to catch her.
- Stable manners were horrendous, she barged, she box walked, etc.
- She would not pick her feet up.
- She was bolshey on the ground.
- She was uncontrollable under saddle.
- She would not stand for mounting.
- She can bloody jump! (Here comes a story) I was riding in the outdoor paddock when all of a sudden she took off, jumped out, I turned her towards the 5 bar 1.40m metal gate into the mares field as it was either there or the road, she did a lovely slow showjumpers canter towards it and popped over it like it was a pole on the ground, me staying on with no reins and no stirrups and only falling after landing when she tripped on a brick. This, as expected, really shuck me up.

We made multiple attempts to send her back for a refund (as stated in the law dealers must take the horse back if customer is not satisfied within a two week period) they failed to comply with this law. Blah blah blah we sent her to our 'professionals' yard (emphasis on the quotation marks) who blagged that she was far too dangerous and was going to kill me but could sell her on for £5,000? Hmmmmm. What I didn't know was, that in the 5 weeks that she was at this 'pro' yard, she was beaten if she misbehaved, her head was dragged into an outline (nose touching her chest) with side reins, she was ruined basically. As the dealers would not take her back I decided I was going to keep her and work through these issues. When she was brought back to my own yard, a trusted, extremely experienced friend of mine got on her, only to be bronked off as soon as she took up the reins. We ran through all the usual checks - teeth, back, saddle, feet, everything came back clear. I went right back to basics with her, didn't ride her for at least a month and gradually built up trust to the point that:
- She would come when called from the field.
- Toddlers could go in her stable and groom her without an issue.
- She was a big dog to handle on the ground.
- She stood perfectly still when you asked.
- She would pick all four feet up from a slight tickle on her leg.
I'd come a long way with her, in my eyes. I then worked on the riding aspects. We used treats whilst I mounted, attempting to distract her enough for me to get on safely, this really worked. We got to the point I could get on completely alone and she'd just stand, it was a huge step for us. This was all over winter so we were in a small indoor school, but I was glad of this as I felt too scared of the outdoor paddock due to the memories of her jumping the gate. We walked, trotted, cantered, backed up, did turn on the forehand and were just getting legyield. I then had a go bareback. I did all the same, bareback.

I've always been slightly apprehensive towards hacking as I worry about the horses safety if anything were to happen to me and she ran off, but we worked on this and I got to the point that I could take her out on 2 hour hacks and not have a care in the world. I got told that it would be years if ever until I would be able to take her on an open field, but I did. First time, she was perfect. We did a very elegant, very controlled canter. Second time, we galloped, my saddle slipped, I came off, but got back on, then came off again straight away.

As the summer months began to come nearer, and people started to ride in the outdoor, I felt I needed to try, I was terrified. So I moved yards 2 weeks ago. I've since been in the outdoor almost every night, thought everything was going so well, until the other night. I got on fine (apart from her stepping backwards when I initially attempted to mount) then when I took up the reins, she bronked her way around the school and off I came, luckily I think I've only done muscular damage to my shoulder but it could have been a lot worse. I'm going to check every aspect of her health again but at this moment in time her problem appears to be psychological. I have no idea what has gone on with her in the past before I bought her (the joys of buying from a dealer I suppose) but I'm worried that if it is a phycological problem it's going to be too unpredictable and dangerous for me to deal with.

Today, I lunged her and she bronked at first, but then relaxed and was dropping her head in submission and going off of voice commands by the end. Then I proceeded to mount, with an experienced person holding her on the lunge, she bolted as soon as I settled into the saddle. We calmed her down, got off and repeated the process, she repeated the response too. I got off and went to get on a third time and this time she attempted to bolt as I was swinging my leg over but settled down and didn't go quite as fast when I got on. We made sure she was calm and I dismounted again, leaving it there for the night as the rain was heading in.

I've got offers from the Yard Owner to help me school her or I could sell her on, but I don't think I'm ready to give up on her yet, after all the improvements I've made on her, I think they out way the bad events...

I just need some advice really, does anyone have any tips on dealing with a horse that bronks and bolts whilst mounting? I'll try anything at this point!

I apologise for the essay but wanted to be thorough!
Many thanks, Vicky.

[kizi]

Hi Vicky, I agree with your own suggestion of getting her health checked fully from top to tail and back again plus tack etc, and I would do that before attempting to ride her again. You have to rule out pain firstly before you can try to sort the problem or indeed label her as dangerous or damaged goods! I'm not saying it's not possible she's physically damaged but you need to figure out the cause of the problem
If she has an all clear check from a professional body worker and/ or vet, a dentist and a saddler, then personally I would advise you seek professional help from one of Kelly's recommended Associates. It's very difficult to offer advice for such a serious problem on line without seeing first hand etc.. It sounds like you have come a long way with her already, don't stop just yet! But please stay safe! There are lots of different things can help but with such a risky situation I wouldn't feel happy advising because I would feel awful if it was wrong for the situation and you got hurt etc.
The RA's are so so experienced and are just amazing at spotting the tincy tiny signals from the horse that lead to the bigger problem and so often just someone with that experience on the ground can get amazing results in a much quicker time than a best friend or sometimes even other 'experienced' horsey people etc. they will also take everything into account, feed, management etc etc
take the safe options though, don't put yourself or indeed anyone else in danger, and don't let your confidence get more dented. You've come far and given her far more chances then others would have, be proud of that. Sorry I'm not offering any solutions but I do wish you the best of luck with her and what ever the outcome well done you for being brave and looking for help and answers instead of just beating her into submission as others have already tried.

[mollichop]

She sounds very similar to my lad but she is more extreme. Well done on coming so far with her, it's great that you don't want to give up on her and are seeking some help and advice on here.
I agree totally with Kizi, an RA would be money well spent in the meantime you could continue with groundwork and taking her for walks out which will continue to build your relationship, long lining is good for this too.
Sorry I'm not much help, but I wanted to encourage you to continue with her, after 2 years with my lad we are beginning to 'get there' with the riding, we still have moments he bronked n spooked bronked again and I came off, on Friday Ouch! I don't bounce back like I used to, but I don't believe he did. 'On purpose' or to be horrible/evil as his previous owner concluded as she beat him up with her schooling whip and proceeded to punch him. In the face! Nice eh?
Good luck with her, very well done on what you have achieved so far, please do consider speaking to an RA and keep us updated with your progress.
All the Best

[cecilia]

I find it very interesting that Mollichop is still having some problems with her horse after 2 years. It encourages me a lot as Blue and I are just coming up to that point, great to read.
Vicky I think you are amazing! How many 14 year olds would have the guts to tackle such problems and almost none would have the sensitivity you are showing. I have a difficult horse too and know how you feel when it is 3 steps forward and 4 back. I wish you such luck and success.

[kafee]

My goodness, you really have been incredibly patient with your horse, and done your very best to help and understand her. Well done you have managed to completely change her life for her.

I can't tell what is wrong with her, but obviously there is something seriously wrong for her to behave like that. Horses are not vindictive, they react to what is happening to them at that moment, using their memories as a guide on how to cope with situations. It sounds like pain, so even though you did all the checks last year, I think it would be wise to have her checked over again, if you can afford to do that. Has she changed shape, such that the saddle is no longer comfortable, she's just moved yards, has she got ulcers due to the stress of the move, or due to being stabled all winter. That's where I would start. When all checks come back clear I would get an RA to come and watch you working with her. There will be some tiny little clues that the RA will pick up, that you cannot see as you are working so close to her.

I'm afraid horses that have been mishandled are far harder to help than those that are totally unhandled, as they have bad memories of people, objects and situations to over come before they can trust.

[specialized]

I would strongly suspect a pain issue, especially with her background. I have heard of too many horses coming from Ireland through dealers that have been broken and hunted at 2-3yo and arrive with all the physical and mental baggage. Damaged necks and backs through hunting accidents are unfortunately too common and this is where I would start to look first, especially with the violent reaction on mounting. I would also try and get a true assessment of age - many a 4yo is sold as a 7yo.

[jen1]

At the risk of coming across rude, but why or it shouldn't take 1 person an hour to catch a horse, 4 is a bit excessive, id be tempted to think knowledge was lacking in how a horse is to be caught! And did you know what you were buying how thorough were you checking she was the horse for you? Did anyone else help? Posts like your throw up more questions in my mind at what's really going on, I suspect pain and good on you for thinking lime that, be sure to have tack checked too, if your horse was a baby as in never taught anything properly then it might be upto you to start again, an ra at this point is a must

[snow2908]

Apr 13, 2014 22:58:04 GMT 1 jen1 said:

At the risk of coming across rude, but why or it shouldn't take 1 person an hour to catch a horse, 4 is a bit excessive, id be tempted to think knowledge was lacking in how a horse is to be caught! And did you know what you were buying how thorough were you checking she was the horse for you? Did anyone else help? Posts like your throw up more questions in my mind at what's really going on, I suspect pain and good on you for thinking lime that, be sure to have tack checked too, if your horse was a baby as in never taught anything properly then it might be upto you to start again, an ra at this point is a must

She hadn't seen grass for a very long time - I know how to catch a horse, but I've got videos of her, every time you got within 20 feet near her she'd gallop away. Four people were needed to corner her so she couldn't run away.
It uncovered that she was at least exposed to some sort of calmer, whether that be through a supplement in her diet or something more serious.
This horse was sold wrongly to us, my riding instructor who is a fellow of the BHS helped me find her, I'm not just an impatient idiot that makes such a big, life-changing decision of buying a horse half heartedly jumping into a commitment of buying the first horse I see.
Are you suggesting that I mistreat my horse? Or do not know how to properly take care of her? I hope not. 
I have been down the route of pain 6 months ago when her behavior was the same as it is now and everything came back clear. Of course I'm going to check every aspect to eliminate any chance of pain from the situation, but surely you must see why I'm swaying more towards her having some sort of phycological issue? 
I took her back to basics after all the problems I experienced 6 months ago and I have no problem with starting all over again.

[snow2908]

Apr 13, 2014 20:42:20 GMT 1 specialized said:

 I would also try and get a true assessment of age - many a 4yo is sold as a 7yo.

Thank you, but she is definitely 7yo. X

[snow2908]

Apr 13, 2014 17:13:54 GMT 1 cecilia said:

Vicky I think you are amazing! How many 14 year olds would have the guts to tackle such problems and almost none would have the sensitivity you are showing. I have a difficult horse too and know how you feel when it is 3 steps forward and 4 back. I wish you such luck and success.

Thank you very much Cecilia! As you can probably tell this little mare means the world to me and I am willing to do anything to help her live the fullest and happiest life possible.  I wish you luck with your difficult horse too. X

[jen1]

With horses like that in the catching stakes it better to build a corral, and feed daily and do the work that is necessary to build trust , it takes as long as it takes!

[snow2908]

Apr 14, 2014 22:42:27 GMT 1 jen1 said:

With horses like that in the catching stakes it better to build a corral, and feed daily and do the work that is necessary to build trust , it takes as long as it takes!

It's obvious you haven't read my post properly, I have no issue with catching her now, she trusts me irrevocably and yes it did take time, but please don't put me in the stereotype of teenagers being impatient, I am far from it. I took the time with her to build up an unbreakable bond between the two of us, which I doubt this horse has ever been exposed to before.


As for your corral suggestion, did you see the bit about her jumping the 5 bar gate?! She did that to get back into the field with her FRIENDS. Do you really expect her to stay put in a corral? Alone?


Horses are herd animals and become extremely anxious when seperated.
I'm asking you this, have you ever met a horse like her? Something that has not been exposed to grass or other horses for a very long time? That has past issues? Hmmmmm...

[portiabuzz]

you come across as very mature in your posts sound alot older then 14

Ive seen horses go through the kind of treatment your poor girl has been through, am so glad shes found saftey with you.

However Jen is a very experienced lady who offers alot of good advice, and the last few posts are a little rude.

I wish you all the best

[snow2908]

Apr 15, 2014 16:42:20 GMT 1 portiabuzz said:

you come across as very mature in your posts sound alot older then 14

Ive seen horses go through the kind of treatment your poor girl has been through, am so glad shes found saftey with you.

However Jen is a very experienced lady who offers alot of good advice, and the last few posts are a little rude.

I wish you all the best

I know, I'm sure Jen is experienced I've just had so many people telling me to do so many different things, I've had adults bullying me trying to get me to give my horse away by telling me she's going to kill me, I've had people tell me everything that's gone wrong with snow is all my fault, I'm just tired of people making me feel in the wrong and totally inadequate when all I want is the best life possible for my girl  I shouldn't have reacted to Jens posts as I did but what I hope you, Jen and everyone else will try to understand is that I've put my heart and soul into this horse, even though she is the first horse I have owned myself, I have 10 years experience with them already under my belt. Of course I completely understand theres always more to learn, I learn at least 1 thing a day, but I just can't tolerate people underestimating my care for my horse after everything I have been through. 

I sincerely apologise. 

[happysnail]

Dear snow2908,
It sounds like you've climbed some real mountains with your mare and you're looking for someone to help with her issues and the confidence knocks you've had. The RAs are fantastic and they have such useful insights into horse and human psychology and some in particular have expertise in confidence. What part of the country are you in? It might be that there is an RA close by who could work with you both. Monty's online university might have some useful lessons too.
Take care,
Happysnailx