What is the truth? Clwyd Davis?

[Deleted]

Good point LizP the tone of voice in the commentary, even the music used is all to get a reaction and play on the emotions of the viewer.................case in point last week 'Africa' the new David Attenborough programme came in for a lot of flak from viewers about the scene where a baby elephant died and showed its mother grieving over it, viewers complained that he music and the commentary made the scene more harrowing than it could have been and they complained about showing it as well..........................the response of the BBC was that ' the programme portrays life and death in the wild' many complainants asked why the film crew could not step in and get water for the baby elephant.

This programme was edited to have the same effect on many viewers, we only see the story they want to portray and they play on our emotional responses to that.

[Catrin]

Here's a photo taken today of Clwyd wearing the new clothes someone took him yesterday. Lifting someone's self–esteem a little bit, can take them a long way. Who'd have thought he'd tidy up?
www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151234563284372&set=a.429080339371.231569.559079371&type=1&theater

You may be able to scroll forwards to see two pictures of two of the ten horses he has been left with, also been taken today, assuming Facebook permissions allow it.

[shan]

All I can see is him carrying a bit of wood in his usual clothes...??

[lucia]

I've been trying to get my head around this so have been trying to work out what we (think) we know:
Clwyd is clearly in need of help for himself.
He has a tragic story that has clearly affected him badly.
He is living in pretty squalid conditions
He has in the past bred some good horses
Current horses were indiscriminately breeding resulting in far too many animals for someone with much better financial security than he has.
He cannot afford to house and keep himself properly.
He cannot afford to house and keep all those horses properly.
He is squatting on land and using equipment that is not his.
Some of the horses were clearly in need of basic care (worming etc) and that *most* looked ok is not acceptable.
He has been previously investigated for animal cruelty.

Seems to me that putting emotion aside and looking at the practicalities it seems the issues he has are impossible to get past.
What happens if he is allowed to keep some (hopefully gelded) horses? Where is he going to keep them? Is it 'ok' for him to squat just because he has been and the land owner has been unsuccessful at getting him removed? I personally would take a very dim view of someone moving into/onto my property if I was fortunate enough to have land, complete with herd of horses uninvited whatever their situation! It's also illegal.


So we can provide wormers, feed, donations etc and put a big sticking plaster on it all. Until it all goes off the boil and people forget about him and his horses, or he moves on (presumably onto some other poor souls land) and gets more horses. The cycle starts again.

He may very well love his horses but this situation is untenable surely?

[Catrin]

Jan 16, 2013 20:42:39 GMT 1 lucia said:

… He is squatting on land and using equipment that is not his. …

The rest of your statements are evident or have been supported, but where does the squatting evidence come from? I don't remember it being in the documentary or reported previously. Who owns the land and property? You can squat in residential property, but you cannot squat on land, he would be trespassing. Is there any record of attempts to evict him from either?

[Ally S]

This makes it clear enough to me that Michelle knows full well he's squatting. Answers here from Michelle on the support Clwyd facebook page...

Q: Are the horses in the pictures his? Simple yes or no, there's been plenty of time to ask him.
A: As you are all aware Clwyd is the subject of an ongoing legal case, his solicitor has expressly requested that no further comment be made publicly in relation to this legal matter

Q: Where will the horses he is apparently going to be left with be kept? As he's effectively fly grazing on someone else's land at the moment.
A: Michelles aim is to help Horses and Owners in exactly situations like this, however rescue centres are brimming and relocating wild horses takes months of work and involves significant costs, the aim of this site was to raise awareness and funding tol allow michelle people like Clwyd on an individual basis, so far paypal donations amount to around £170 meaning Michelles ability to help and the options she has available to her very limited.
Q: Why have the mares been allowed to get in foal to their own offspring, or sires?
A: Quite simply this is a result of poor equine management and is exatly the reason Michelle needs help and funding to enable her to educate and help owners to correctly manage herds, dontaions and help for things like electric fencing etc are all going to help her help others with situations like this.

Q: Why has it taken months to remove the colts, and three are apparently still there?
A: Michelle has assisted Clywd in rehoming over 30 horses, each one a considerable undertaking in time and resources, she has done this with next to no funding, help or support, this has been made more difficult by not been able to get a trailer onto wet land to catch horses. If you want to see michelle work faster and more effectivly dealing with cases like this then why not help her in some way?

Q: What is happening with the proceeds from the sales? Are people just funding a dealer?
A: Its not a matter of funding a dealer no, if you look at the basic costs of rehoming these 30 some horses already dealt with feed, haylage, stabling, worming, louse treatments, vets bills and grooms help from Michelle, its suprising how far money doesnt go! Any surplass from the sales of Clwyds horses have been used to improve the living standards of horses that remain in his care. Please also take into account that Clwyd is not the only person Michelle is helping - hence she needs our help!

Q: What measures will be put in place to stop the breeding cycle just starting again?
A: The plan eventually given the time and resourse is to catch and geld all colts and rehome them, eventually Clwyd will be left with just the older mares that will not be tamed and no stallion

This is subject to a court case, and needs leaving to the RSPCA now. Why would the older mares be untameable?

This discussion reminds me of the fairy tale 'The Emperors New Clothes'.

[lucia]

Catrin,the landowners relatives made a statement on facebook and also on other forums. I have asked for this to be confirmed or denied via the supporters facebook page but have had no response as yet.
Apparently there has been a huge legal battle by the elderly (80yo) landowner trying to evict Clwyd who has claimed squatters rights. My understanding is that as he has been living therefor a long time its made it hard to evict him. The elderly land owner is understandably running out of energy and money to keep fighting this.

[Catrin]

Jan 17, 2013 19:36:14 GMT 1 lucia said:

Catrin,the landowners relatives made a statement on facebook and also on other forums. …

Any of these that I've seen so far, have no verifiable information, so as far as I am concerned it is as much hearsay as anything else is speculation.

At least we know that there is an RSPCA court case and a man and some horses in need. But those are all the facts that anyone can be clear on.

[lucia]

Well with all due respect, I cannot see how he can possibly afford an 80 acre property...?
Squatting seems the logical explanation given the comments made by a relative of the landowner (I dont see why they would lie about it?) and the overall circumstances.
As I stated I have asked for confirmation or denial of this from people 'at the coal face' but noone has answered, although lots of his supporters have asked about trying to secure free/reduced priced land and most seem to accept the fact that he is squatting and that this is untenable long term.
Whatever, it doesn't change the fact that he cannot afford ANY horses in reality, let alone 10, he cannot look after them properly, and he cannot look after himself properly.
I do feel sorry for his situation, he has suffered tragedy in his life and is obviously in need of some help both mentally perhaps, as well as practically. But that doesn't change the fact that some of those horses were not in the best of health (what about the dead colt foal?) and I dont think that someone in his position is able to adequately care for one horse let alone 10. At the moment this is flavour of the month and help, both practical and monetary, is coming in. But that won't go on forever and does raise the question of whether we should be enabling him to continue, which might perhaps result in a repeat episode in the future.
Anyway I have tried to be fair and balanced in my comments here but you clearly have a very strong opinion about this and perhaps your own reasons for being so vehement in your defence of him which are none of my business.
So I am bowing out of this conversation as I don't feel it's going anywhere. I don't think things are as cut and dried as people believe but I imagine most of the facts will come out of the woodwork after his trial.
I wish him no ill, in fact I hope he can find some peace and help to find a nice warm home and the support he needs. But I am concerned about the horses, he may love them but love sadly, as we all know doesn't pay the bills that all horses seem to cause!

[varkie]

Surely if Clwyd wasn't fly grazing, Michelle would have denied it in her above statement?

I actually thought it was pretty clear in the documentary, that he didn't own the land he was on, and had 'found' it and moved on, and was not paying rent.

[debsmq]

All very sad, a lot of people face tragedy and hardship but if you are responsible for any animal, then you should BE responsible and ensure they are fed, wormed shod/trimmed etc. And be able to be handled, even just the basics....for their general well being if anything should happen t you.
Sadly some people wont help themselves or let others help them...when its only about them tho that isn't a problem....

[spanisheyes]

Well at least we now know Clwyd and his ilk who keep breeding indiscriminately are keepingTescos in burgers

[epona0129]

There are so many pages on Facebook that are raising funds for this man .. I find this incredulous ... surely the funds should be raised for the welfare charities that will end up sorting out the mess ? Also the person who is assisting him is actually selling the horses between £400-£800 per head .. I believe a few have been sold but yet to see feed , hay or wormers being purchased by Clwyd himself , saying that why should he when people are so soft to do it for him !

[spanisheyes]

I agree epona it truly beggars belief.
We had a classic case on here of someone with no money or experience taking on a rescue Arab mare. Of course now a legitimate sanctuary is picking up the pieces and the horse after more neglect and suffering is finally being cared for properly.
Which is exactly what will happen with Clywds herd ........

[pluto1]

I just can't believe so called animal lovers can neglect their animals, if they want to live in squalid conditions that's up to them, but their animals deserve better, if you can't manage them an it s starting to get out of hand then ask for help, you always see young girls that want to be around horses as they are not lucky enough to have their own, ask charities for help, do wot you have to do but never let the animals suffer.
Personally I think he should ave helped load the pony on trailer to stop it getting so stressed, no matter wot he thought of the RSPCA, he should ave put the pony first not wanting to see it get stressed out.
Everyone has got their views on RSPCA but at end of the day they are the only animal charity that can or does prosecute, so I do support them on that