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Post by cheekychops on Dec 5, 2012 13:30:35 GMT 1
Cheeky Chops and I are polar opposites, we must look a very amusing combination ;D He is mahoosive and really doesn't feel the cold, whilst I am a skinny bean and struggle to keep weight on and the cold goes right through me. If only I could siphon off some of his lard...
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Post by troop on Dec 5, 2012 13:50:22 GMT 1
Im a "good doer" i just look and food and pile it on but im also a cold blood i am often very cold and have bad circulation so i get chilblaines etc if i dont wrap up (and i still shiver if i stop) .... My Troop doesnt wear rugs and only really gets his haylage through winter he is about the right weight just not muscled up as he is retired.
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orangetails
Intermediate Poster
Jay, Lilly and Tangle
Posts: 219
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Post by orangetails on Dec 5, 2012 14:37:35 GMT 1
I'm with AG on this - a little bit of shivering in a woolly native living out in their natural environment is maybe understandable, but in terms of our ridden horses, I do think it's cruel. How can we expect a horse to work softly and willingly when it has been painfully bracing it's muscles and shivering?
I've had good doers, and I appreciate how hard they are to manage, but it is our responsibility as owners to keep them a consistent weight all year round - the whole 'shivering is natural and gets the bodyweight down ready for the spring grass' really doesn't fly with me, because I don't think it's any more excuseable to allow them to balloon on spring grass than it is to have them shivering in the winter! I also believe shivering can cause them to cling to their fat reserves - the last time I had a really good doer, I notice he lost more weight when rugged reasonably in the winter (eg with a 100g fill to compensate for the coat being flattened) than he did when under-rugged and feeling the cold (eg if left naked in his own coat or with a no-fill rainsheet)
Like AG, mine are usually on the leaner side of what most consider 'normal' - they are fit and they work. Not to the extent of a three-day eventer, but leaner than your average leisure horse - I really don't like fat horses, I totally agree with you bertie that it's cruel to stress teir bodies in that way, especially if we then ask them to work too.
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Post by BJMM on Dec 5, 2012 17:13:15 GMT 1
Arabiangem is a skinny minnie and I am very jealous ;D My three are all good doers. I prefer to rug them so that they are warm and dry, but they are certainly not over rugged or cosseted! They are currently standing in a snowy field with natural shelter, not much grass left, so plenty of forage and they are all happy and healthy. I am a good doer myself, although I used to be a skinny minnie like Arabiangem (age and slowing metabolism will get you in the end ;D ) and I tend to put on a few pounds in winter and lose it in the spring.
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Post by bertie666 on Dec 5, 2012 18:50:00 GMT 1
Ive only see Whin shiver once - when a rug leaked in the torrential rain - took it off, gave her a slice of hay and she was fine. Not bothered with a rug since!
I dont agree with the consistent weight thing - horses are designed to fluctuate throughout the year - a recent vet lecture I was at actually covered this and the feeling is its because owners dont let horses lose it in winter anymore that we have such an epidemic of obesity and lami - as it creeps on year by year.
As for my - the best thing that made me lose a lot of weight was a nasty bacteria called campyla bactor - apart from that I weight train and do horses and a physical job so tend towards solid rather than slim.
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Post by june on Dec 5, 2012 21:05:19 GMT 1
I hate managing good doers. Give me a skinny horse any day and I can put weight on it. Feeding horses for weight gain is easy - assuming there is no underlying health issue. Give me a good doer and I hate it! I hate muzzles, but they work. I hate tickle nets, but they work. I hate limiting hay in the field, but it works. I hate under rugging, but it works. I try and manage it with exercise, but it usually isn't enough. So, I use a combination but often fail. Thankfully most of the polo ponies do do enough exercise that we can keep them slim but if a horse has an injury that means it can't do enough exercise then that's a big issue. I muzzled one 24/7 for a while this summer and while I felt really bad about doing it, I have to admit it worked and the horse looks a whole lot better now. I'm going to experiment with bringing in at night and using trickle nets this winter and see how that goes. Somehow that feels better than muzzling 24/7 but not sure why it should! I've been using Coolheat rugs this year but I'm not sure that's helping that much. They work but maybe the horses' coat is so efficient that they don't use any more calories in a Coolheat rug than they use in a normal rug!
Letting them shiver off weight is a step too far for me. Having said that, I've never seen a horse shiver in winter. Their winter coats are very efficient. I see them shiver much more in summer when it is cool, wet and windy.
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Post by seble on Dec 6, 2012 9:53:43 GMT 1
I do believe that horses metabolise energy (calories) as heat more efficiently than humans as we have had it "bred out of us" for want of a better term. When I needed to reduce my girls weight, I was careful not to over rug so she would use up some extra calories keeping warm but would never leave her shivering. Now she is at the correct weight (and possibly a bit thin now) I make sure she is rugged as per conditions.
I have noticed some people on our yard who just use the same rug and neck cover every day in winter even if the temperature fluctuates. I always change the weight of the rug for the weather and think having necks that can be removed is a great way of adjusting the warmth of a rug as well.
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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Dec 6, 2012 11:21:51 GMT 1
In a very long life of keeping horses and ponies the only time I have seen one shiver was in the summer when it was very wet, very cold and windy and it had its summer coat. Mine have a good 4 inches of fluff and never wear rugs for warmth. They have been known to sport one to keep clean and dry for riding. I hate to see natives with their full coat wearing rugs as I know they are far more likely to be cold due to flattening their coat. It doesnt work well when covered so if you must rug for any reason and lots of reasons are acceptable make sure you replace the warmth I have never used less than a medium weight either in winter as it is the minimum to compensate for their own hair. Mine are allowed to lose quite a considerable amount of weight over winter and especially March and April when they seem to drop dramatically and so far have managed by keeping them all year on the same field to avoid huge gains and the use of a muzzle which I hate too Me the last time I was 10 stone was when I was about 10 years old so not a skinny person by any imagination however I hate the cold to the point of wanting to hibernate in winter and snow is horrid stuff even on a christmas card
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orangetails
Intermediate Poster
Jay, Lilly and Tangle
Posts: 219
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Post by orangetails on Dec 6, 2012 14:08:17 GMT 1
I dont agree with the consistent weight thing - horses are designed to fluctuate throughout the year - a recent vet lecture I was at actually covered this and the feeling is its because owners dont let horses lose it in winter anymore that we have such an epidemic of obesity and lami - as it creeps on year by year. If it creeps on year by year it's not managing them at a 'consistent' weight though is it?! The problem you are talking about is when people allow them to get a bit fat prior to winter - so they are 'well covered' and 'have reserves for the cold weather' - and then keep feeding them, and they remain 'well covered' and just get fatter come spring when the grass comes through (if indeed the grass ever really stops growing which in a lot of milder parts of the UK it really doesn't for any conceivable period - not like the kind of rough grazing horses were 'designed' to eat anyway) I keep mine at a CONSISTENT weight - ie they don't put weight on in spring/summer (yes, that can be hard work!) and they also don't lose it over the colder months either.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Dec 6, 2012 14:35:21 GMT 1
Im with the cruel to let them shiver clan!! Why should our horses be left cold just because we are unable to manage their weight with diet & exercise? Cold muscles =tight muscles. Mine are toasty when i leave them at night and toasty when i get there in the morning. I change rugs according to the weather as i dont like the thought of them being too warm either.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Post by jen1 on Dec 6, 2012 15:50:06 GMT 1
its called not being soft and letting them keep them selves warm with the food there eating and letting there coats fluff up, however it depends on how fat they are, not all of ours have been that sound this summer and a few are porky and in light weight rugs, out for 20 hours or maybe less per day, mine get to move around lots
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 16:49:13 GMT 1
For those who have never seen a horse shiver in winter i'd guess you don't have Arabs! Talin's coat doesn't get mote than 1 inch long and isn't all that thick. He is fine in the dry but if its wet and the temp goes below about 12 degrees he shivers.
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Post by antares on Dec 6, 2012 17:11:32 GMT 1
My Spanish boy is the same Michelle. In the dry he's ok to -3 or 4 but if it is raining he shivers and is most unhappy about it!
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Post by KimT on Dec 6, 2012 18:06:41 GMT 1
I dont agree with them shivering either. I need to watch Ellies back muscles so she defintiely wont be allowed to be cold enough to shiver. However I will allow her to feel the cold enough to hopefully loose a bit of weight. The other problem is that she will eat her hay a lot faster if she is cold to help keep warm (she has double netted hay, etc) and if she eats all that, she starts on her bed!
I once knew a horse that was left to shiver. He shivered so much his stomach muscles went into spasm which presented as mild colic. As soon as he had a rug on he was fine becasue he stopped shivering. That to me is cruel!
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Post by cbc on Dec 6, 2012 19:24:46 GMT 1
I have only once seen a horse shiver in winter (once or twice in summer when they were caught out in particularly unpleasant rain). Two of the poor guys were rugged up but stuck out in the field in wet snow when I had been delayed (guess what, by the snow) bringing them in. I do use a less warm rug on one of mine who I would like to lose weight, but wouldn't want to see her shiver. I do ensure that she is not so lightly rugged as to be miserable, obviously paying attention to diet and other factors. Just changing my job so should get some more light work done with her which will also benefit a great deal.
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