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Post by jill on Dec 2, 2012 14:17:25 GMT 1
Wheat?? I thought wheat was likely to give them laminitis?
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Post by specialized on Dec 2, 2012 14:30:30 GMT 1
SAFE AND SOUND INGREDIENTS Oatfeed, Nutritionally Improved Straw, Grass Chaff, Chopped Cereal Straw, Cane Molasses, Grass, Unmolassed Sugar Beet, Wheatfeed, Full Fat Soya Bean Meal, Wheat, Vegetable Oil, Full Fat Linseed, Mint 1.4%, Dicalcium Phosphate, Limestone Flour, Salt, Blackcurrant Powder, Carrot Powder, Beetroot Powder, Tomato Powder 0.4%, Vitamin/Trace Mineral Premix, Nettle Leaves 0.3%, Seaweed 0.2%, Rosehips 0.2%, Methyl Sulphonyl Methane (MSM) 0.1%, Calcined Magnesite, Garlic Granules 0.1% Aside from the added molasses there are quite a few grass products which are flash dried so high in sugar. Id swap to just speedibeat or fast fibre and be changing the formula 4 feet to one with high levels of minerals in such as Forage Plus Winter Balancer. You say you've tried barefoot before and it didnt work - was this because she was sore? I wonder if that could've been diet related. At the end of the day she's lame in shoes so is taking them off and giving her the time to grow a new hoof really such a bad alternative? For a horse with hoof problems I would be avoiding a feed that listed oatfeed, wheatfeed, cane molasses and wheat. There also does not appear to be a probiotic there - and what is Nutritionally improved straw?
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Post by martinmolly on Dec 2, 2012 14:37:18 GMT 1
Well I think could it could be still some puss there , maybe poultice around the coronet band and see if anything comes out . I personally don't use bute to much as it hides things u want to see not meaning to sound mean but u want to see if there's little pain to see what's going on good luck though .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2012 15:48:32 GMT 1
tbh, if the horse has historically bad feet, constant abcessing, metablolic problems or WLD then I'd agree with the others about scrutinising feed. In this case I think it's extremely unlikely to offer any benefit given that the horse has two handfuls a day - that's about 100g - or 0.2% of the horses's weight, it's really not going to make a world of difference. If diet is the problem adding a decent balancer would be far more helpful.
Wheatfeed and oatfeed are the outer fibre coating from the wheat and oat grain. They are just fibre, the only reason to dislike them is if you object to "by products" in feedstuffs, which to me makes about as much sense as stopping any form of recycling on the gut feeling that the products of it aren't "pure" and "new". Use of by-products should not be seen as bad just because it's a by-product.
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Post by bertie666 on Dec 2, 2012 17:11:08 GMT 1
Specialized
Michellep - I realise the horse is getting a tiny amount but dont forget that that accumulates in their system. If the feet are compromised it is usually because the gut is either not functioning well or because the food is poor, or both.
TBG its more the amount of sugar than by products that concerns me. However Id rather not be feeding so many potential irritants to my horses - especially if they had an ongoing lameness issue.
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Post by specialized on Dec 2, 2012 18:09:33 GMT 1
Sounds Yummy
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Post by specialized on Dec 2, 2012 18:13:35 GMT 1
tbh, if the horse has historically bad feet, constant abcessing, metablolic problems or WLD then I'd agree with the others about scrutinising feed. In this case I think it's extremely unlikely to offer any benefit given that the horse has two handfuls a day - that's about 100g - or 0.2% of the horses's weight, it's really not going to make a world of difference. If diet is the problem adding a decent balancer would be far more helpful. Wheatfeed and oatfeed are the outer fibre coating from the wheat and oat grain. They are just fibre, the only reason to dislike them is if you object to "by products" in feedstuffs, which to me makes about as much sense as stopping any form of recycling on the gut feeling that the products of it aren't "pure" and "new". Use of by-products should not be seen as bad just because it's a by-product. They can't be dismissed as 'only fibre' as there are cases of horses with, particularly, oat intolerance that are sent loopy when fed any part of the plant. It is not the case with this particular feed, but I have a thing about certain feed companies that advertise their products as 'cereal free' but still include oatfeed and wheatfeed.
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Post by nich on Dec 3, 2012 9:41:41 GMT 1
sorry if I've missed this - but compromised immune system leading to abcesses is a big indication of Cushings to me - as the horse been tested and is it on prascend?? My horse abcessed repeatedly last year, feet are lovely now she is on prascend. sort the diet out of course but sounds very likley to be Cushingoid to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 11:07:29 GMT 1
Michellep - I realise the horse is getting a tiny amount but dont forget that that accumulates in their system. If the feet are compromised it is usually because the gut is either not functioning well or because the food is poor, or both. TBG its more the amount of sugar than by products that concerns me. However Id rather not be feeding so many potential irritants to my horses - especially if they had an ongoing lameness issue. Some things may accumulate in their system but the vast majority don't so applying that theory to the whole ingredients list isn't all that helpful IMO. Fibre and sugars don't accumulate and most minerals don't. That's how the digestive system is designed to work. If the horse was showing signs of irritants then again I'd agree - get rid of any extras and see if she improves, or if the feet had deteriorated after being put on that feed. But if the horse has been on the same tiny portion of feed or ages and has had one abcess it doens't sound systemic to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 11:11:35 GMT 1
They can't be dismissed as 'only fibre' as there are cases of horses with, particularly, oat intolerance that are sent loopy when fed any part of the plant. . A small propportion of horses being intolerant to it doesn't mean it isn't fibre. Different fibre sources have different marker cells, some horses will be intolerant/ allergic to some and not others. just like some humans are coeliac but can eat oats, it's a dysfunctional immune response, not a problem with the food. Has OP said the horse is loopy? If not I don't see that as relevant in this case. Oatfeed and wheatfeed fed in those quantities aren't common causes of abcessing IMO.
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Post by mandal on Dec 3, 2012 11:16:43 GMT 1
My horse has had lots of foot problems this year, starting in about April, which what we thought was lami, but then actually wasnt. I know it's been a bad year with all the wet but with suspected laminitis in the Spring and thin soles I honestly think a program to get the hooves stronger and healthier is something to seriously consider. This latest lameness is a symptom of a problem, even if the bute masked the lameness the underlying cause (whatever that is) is still there. Diet plays a crucial role in this, particularly sugar/starch levels and mineral status. I would consider using a higher spec balancer such as pro hoof to begin with. Apologies if this sounds like a lecture, I am trying to help not irritate.
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Post by specialized on Dec 3, 2012 11:19:48 GMT 1
They can't be dismissed as 'only fibre' as there are cases of horses with, particularly, oat intolerance that are sent loopy when fed any part of the plant. . A small propportion of horses being intolerant to it doesn't mean it isn't fibre. Different fibre sources have different marker cells, some horses will be intolerant/ allergic to some and not others. just like some humans are coeliac but can eat oats, it's a dysfunctional immune response, not a problem with the food. I never said it wasn't fibre, I said it cannot be dismissed as ONLY fibre, as you have rightly stated there are many types of fibre. Similarly, it IS a potential problem with the food if it is marketed as something that it is not (once again I am not referring to this specific feed).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 11:20:59 GMT 1
I should add, I'm not saying you shouldn't look at the diet... but in terms of the biggest impact I think time and money is best spent getting a forage analysis to see if hay/ haylage is laden with sugar (given that she's probably eating nearly 70 - 100x the amount of hay than hard feed) and getting the horse on a decent balancer is likely to have far more of an impact than scrutinising every tiny ingredient in a feed that is fed in small quantities.
MTA cross posted! Yes I agree with mislabelling specialized - "NIS" sounds like a term invented to decieve!
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Post by bertie666 on Dec 3, 2012 11:39:55 GMT 1
The thing is its not just one abscess Michelle - its an ongoing hoof problem which screams compromised gut at me.
If I had ongoing hoof issues the first thing Id be doing was going through my feeds with a fine toothcomb to get it all as clean as possible. (cept I feed straights and am mineral balanced so not a lot more I can do and thats without hoof problems!)
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Post by nich on Dec 3, 2012 17:39:41 GMT 1
or Cushings....
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