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Post by annabelle h on Jan 20, 2012 14:38:31 GMT 1
Hello CK, sooty, Derek and lovely to hear about the magnificent Milburn. CK I think we need pics of his moustache!
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Post by sooty on Jan 20, 2012 15:07:21 GMT 1
Hello Annabelle! *waves* Hope you are well. Would really enjoy a lesson with you next time you're around
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Post by holi on Jan 20, 2012 15:28:47 GMT 1
Sadly Derek Sarah was ahead of her time and has now given up teaching. She was 'in to monty' years ago and looked at TTT (Arthur Kottas was her hero), Kyra Kirkland, Heather Moffett (asked her to be one of her riders mid 1990s) along with numerous others. She was asked by the Bechelheimers to be their rider way back in the 1980s but turned it down as she couldn't take her horse! The thing was no-one was interested in her methods then - I'm talking about the 90s as then people wanted quick fix results and she would advocate giving horses time off, only working them perhaps 20mins then if they had done well, ending the session etc so clients weren't interested. She couldn't make any money so gave up. I saw her the other week and we were laughing about how many people today think they have just invented these methods and ideas and tell us, no preach to us, on what we should be doing when we were actually looking at this years ago.
We even tried Balance saddles when first 'invented', barefoot - all sorts as early as 1993 so have read quite a few maps!
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Post by heather on Jan 20, 2012 15:59:21 GMT 1
Do you know, Derek, I have been trained by trainers who have been greatly influenced by Baucher, including Mestre Luis Valenca Rodrigues, cousin of Nuno OLiveira, and one of the two founders of the Portuguese School of Equestrian Art. But I have never, ever been advised to use my hands high, and I cannot for the life of me remember reading that Baucher advocated the raising of the neck in this way- I think I had better go back and re-read him, and also Hilda Nelsons excellent account of his two methods!!
It was not until Philippe Karl introduced this to his teaching, having been so damning of it in his long reining book of some years previously, that I even had any notion that it was associated with either of Baucher's 'manners'.
Derek, why did PK do such a 'volte face' on this artificial raising of the neck, when he even went so far as to say that as a result of this:
' The anticipated adjustment of balance is largely discounted by the hindquarters being extended . All movement is affected by the state of persistent contraction in the dorso-lumbar region which restricts the scope of play of the spinal column and causes a tendency to a lateral gait ( the amble) to a cramped or daisy cutting trot, and to a slovely canter. The horse will be walking with his legs and not with his back. He will look stiff and uncomfortable,, it will be hard to bring him to hand and keep him so and his style in jumping will deteriorate.
Natural motion being thus prevented, there is a risk of damaging the physical well being of the horse and of shortening his life'.
For someone to have written such an intensely damning indictment, to do such a drastic 'volte face' as to now be advocating the very same, seems astonishing, and I am very curious as to what PK now feels has so changed his views?
Heather
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Post by heather on Jan 20, 2012 16:02:06 GMT 1
Holi, which 'Sarah' is this?
Heather
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 20, 2012 21:23:38 GMT 1
Hi Heather, I'd be very happy to try to answer your questions but first may I just clarify exactly what you're asking... What specifically do you mean by 'using the hands high'? That's not actually a Baucher thing per se, As I'm sure you know, the idea of raising the hand is much, much older than that... Even Steinbrecht used it with great success (much to the puzzlement of his students... !) Again, what specifically do you mean by 'in this way'. Do you mean by raising the hands or are you meaning how much the neck is raised. I'm not trying to be evasive, I just need to know which question I'm answering... ;D As I recall, Hilda Nelson's books say very little if anything about the 2nd manner, other than that there was one. If you are basing your expectations of the use of the neck on what's in her writings, I'm not at all surprised that you're a little puzzled. If you mean it's the raising of the hands in order to raise the neck that puzzles you, then that needs a slightly different answer... You also asked: In short, because his personal exploration of Baucherism and other ideas with Odin and other horses taught him that what he had been spoon fed in his early education was actually dogma rather than 'truth'. The passage you quoted from 'Long Reining' is an example of the dogma that he had been taught and believed in at that stage of his career. It's almost a direct quote of Seeger, in fact. In 'The Art of Riding' which, as you know I translated for him to be published in English for the first time a couple of years ago but which was written in the late 1990's, he opened by making an 'apology' to readers for some of ideas which this book contains, since he no longer believes them. As he said, " The dogmas of 'official' riding are spread deep and wide and it is not easy to free oneself from them..." I think that now PK would say the 'damning indictment' is more a description of Baucherism done wrong or misunderstood rather than a fair assessment of the best it can produce. Raising the hands from time to time is actually a way of avoiding and/or correcting some of those very problems, in fact. This dogma was taught at Saumur almost word for word (and probably still is), even though what some of the more explorative instructors did in private (with tacit encouragement from the 'authorities') was the exact opposite! We can't underestimate just how odd the situation was at Saumur. Philippe said that at one stage at least one very good instructor was thrown out of the school after being caught 'doing flexions' with his own horse in his lunchbreak! The moral at that time seems to have been "do what you think best with your own horses in your own time - but don't be seen doing it". I can't imagine why he left... Best wishes, Derek
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Post by heather on Jan 20, 2012 21:37:03 GMT 1
I am not basing my knowledge of Baucher, just on Hilda Nelson Derek ;-) And actually, I have long used the raising of the hands myself, momentarily, to correct overbending. But I have all of the PK DVDs and books, and especially in the last DVDs released in 2011, there is quite a lot of hands held a lot higher than permits the straight line from bit to elbow, rather than just a momentary raising of the hands.
I am seeing riders at clinics who are trying to emulate this, as they see the videos/DVDs and think it is some form of system to train the horse. I know that PK himself is a true Master, but I have said it before and I say it again, it is all too easy for the amateur to misconstrue, and emulate badly, making the horse hollow and disengaged.
However, I have just bought Dr Thomas Ritter's (a friend) book, and he has a chapter on the use of draw reins with a Cavesson, Newcastle style, other than the fact that he uses a snaffle and cavesson, rather than cavesson and curb. Thomas states that using the draw reins on the cavesson rather than the bit, corrects any tendency to overflex, and softens the underneck muscles. But I can see this being fraught with danger, if used by someone with less skill than Thomas, and especially merely by reading a book. I shall be asking him about this too!!
Heather
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 20, 2012 21:46:30 GMT 1
Heather, RE PK: here's a bit of film that we might use as a basis for discussion. www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OgBfZhzm18At the beginning, there's a reasonable example of piaffe, a very collected movement, with virtually no raising of the hands. This is an example of 'showing' the horse as a finished result. At about 1:48 there's an example of training a young horse that involves raising one hand for a very specific educational purpose. Is that the sort of thing you mean by using the hands high? Derek
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 20, 2012 21:57:50 GMT 1
Heather, I crossed posts a bit with you there... Well, what's on the DVDs is a great system to train a horse (imho ) but, like anything else, it requires understanding -preferably through first hand contact with someone who does understand it - to put it into practice to maximum effect. Yes, I agree. However, it is also all too easy for the amateur to misconstrue the system of low hands, making the horse afraid of the bit, overbent, mute in the mouth or behind the bit, stiff at the poll, inflexible, disconnected, on the forehand and thoroughly p*ssed off... One only has to look around to see the proof of that. Wasn't it Oliveira who said "I am saddened by all the time spent arguing about the latin school versus the German. The true connoiseur is one who knows that all the schools are in fact the same..."? You and PK may have different favourite methods and techniques but surely what we all need to do is simply help spread the knowledge that enables a rider to figure out for him or herself how to put any system into practice in a way that is good for ALL horses...?
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Post by heather on Jan 20, 2012 21:58:30 GMT 1
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 20, 2012 21:59:25 GMT 1
PS: I'm also enjoying Dr Ritters book...
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 20, 2012 22:11:03 GMT 1
OK, let's discuss the video you posted. It's a very good example.
PK is using a technique he calls 'action-reaction' in order to solve a very specific problem. The problem is that the horse is shortening his (or her) elevator muscles in order to withdraw from the contact of the bit. I don't think there's any info on the comments about the age of the horse so it's impossible to know whether this is a very young horse with little or no riding or an older horse that has had its mouth spoiled by bad riding. I would guess the latter because I wouldn't expect a green horse to react to PK's hands in that way but I could be wrong.
As is mentioned in the comments, if you look carefully you'll see that he only raises his hands in response to the horse withdrawing from the contact. He is is no way causing the horse to raise its head, other than that he is sitting in the saddle and asking the horse's opinion of 'contact'. What he is doing is definitely explained in Twisted Truths and I think also in Art of Riding but I can't be 100% sure about that without checking it.
In this case, it's ESSENTIAL that the hands stay high until the horse responds to the pressure on the corners of the lips by extending his/her neck and taking the reins forward and down. It looks like a fairly good example of the problem and how to fix it, actually, which is probably why this video was posted. Even once the horse starts to take the contact forward and down, keeping the hands a little higher than normal is a very good idea for a while as it helps encourage the horse to begin to trust the contact again (which is now on the corners of the lips).
Riding (badly, of course) with low hands is a great way to create this problem (because the contact, of which the horse is afraid, is on the bars and/or tongue) and therefore a very poor and slow way for the rider to try to fix it (again, imho, of course).
PS: PK doesn't really get the credit for inventing this, by the way, as it was described in about 1850 by one of Baucher's students. Maybe even used earlier by others...
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 20, 2012 22:26:42 GMT 1
Here is a bit of film of the same horse in trot, presumably in the same session. You'll notice that things are already improving: the horse is taking the reins forward and down more and for longer, so his hands go up less and stay there for a shorter time. It still has a tendency to come behind the bit so there is more to do but you're probabaly looking at about 10 mins on from the first video judging by our experiences in the Teacher's Course It's a very, very effective corrective technique...! www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9UekNEY3Os&feature=related
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 20, 2012 22:34:49 GMT 1
... and in canter. Again, probably the same session. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xW4HhyrR5YThe way the horse extends his neck after about 8 or 9 seconds is what he wants the horse to do all the time. Everything else you see him do is corrective actions to create that neck extension.
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Post by heather on Jan 20, 2012 22:51:52 GMT 1
Yes, I have seen all the clips Derek, and yes, there is indeed improvement, with PK himself, but I know of people who are trying this, having seen the clips and the result ain't pretty, I can tell you!
I just feel that it is too extreme a method to let loose on the public without that first hand supervision that you mention.
Heather
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