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Post by KimT on Jan 16, 2012 15:25:20 GMT 1
Just a quick question. My friend kindly let me ride her horse yesterday and it was a learning curve. He is a fabulous cob who has been trained in a french classical way and Emma said her (and his) influence was from a particular rider who's surname I can not spell and I would like to read up on him and his methods. I think it is Baucher/Bauche...... A lot of what she said was very similar to the way my old instructor used to teach but I never knew the names of what I was doing.
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Post by jennyb on Jan 16, 2012 15:37:27 GMT 1
Francois Baucher. His first and second manner are vastly different! There are more modern riders who's books might be easier to digest, Philippe Karl is quite Baucherist, his books are well worth a read. My own trainer Francois Lemaire de Ruffieu is also pure French classical but a little less Baucherist, less emphasis on high hands and so on. He has written a great book on the aids and LisaP from here organises clinics with him, we are having our next clinic in May in Cheshire, well worth the journey to watch if you like this stuff.
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Post by jen1 on Jan 16, 2012 16:12:36 GMT 1
ill be there with nobs on in some shape or fashion,
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Post by KimT on Jan 16, 2012 16:31:53 GMT 1
I think Derek once recommended a long reining book to me by Phillipe.
I was interested because I don't think I want to go down the standard BHS style of riding with Lady. Maybe I should come to the clinic or another one if the May one is full. Just thinking that Lady can carry her head very high so I'm not sure I want to encourage her to hold it higher (high hand carriage). She is a cob but definitely has Welsh in her. If you imagine a Sec D's high head carriage, that's Lady when she puts her mind to it. I know she is not going to be backed for a long time but we will be starting some very gentle long reining this year so I want to encourage her to lower her head.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 16, 2012 17:05:11 GMT 1
Hi kimturner, Aha... Baucher... he whose name shall not be mentioned, lol! As you've discovered from your friend's cob, there is a lot about Baucher's ideas in practice that is very, very useful. There is also a lot of detrimental stuff written and/or said about Baucher that is skewed out of all recognition or not actually factual. Like anyone else, he was only human, although certainly a bit of a genius, and while of course he wasn't 100% perfect, people have argued over him and his ideas ever since. As jennyb explained, French classical horsemanship is about taking the best of Baucher and adding that to the 'classical tree' of what came before him. Various different instructors do that to a greater or lesser degree. Whether a horse needs to be encouraged to raise its head or lower its head, however, should not be a matter of fashion but depends on the individual horse. There are techniques even in Baucher's world for doing both but most people tend to overlook the latter. Probably about 80% of horses do need to be encouraged to lower in the early stages but there are others who definitely do not. They all, however, need to be encouraged to lengthen their necks and to move in balance which may be done with the head high or low, depending on the horse's individual needs. People do seem to focus on the idea of 'high hands' whenever the name Baucher (or Philippe Karl!) is mentioned, but that is really missing the point. The idea is and always has been to have the hands low so long as everything is fine. The question is what to do when you need to intervene... If not by raising a hand or moving it to the side temporarily then what is the alternative? Pulling, blocking or resisting are the only possible answers. For some reason, humans object to the supposed 'inelegance' of using a hand skillfully in this way but ALL horses prefer it to pulling, blocking or resisting without a shadow of a doubt. Some might say that not everyone can use the hand skillfully and I would agree. But if a (temporarily) high hand is used with insufficient skill, the mistake becomes obvious and the rider can learn. If a 'low' hand is used with insufficient skill, the error is usually disguised to the rider and onlookers but the horse still suffers. This is the fundamental problem behind a huge percentage of the horses that are in trouble today. If you are interested in the best of what's on offer from currently living instructors who follow the French tradition, there are a few options in the UK. Francois is one of the best and I would recommend you to go and see him. There is also the option of clinics and/or lessons here at Holistic Equitation in the Midlands with me (I'm currently a direct student of Philippe Karl) or with Birgit Beck-Broichsitter. Apart from being a Licenced Instructor of Philippe Karl's School of Lightness, Birgit has also trained quite extensively with Johann Reigler who until recently was a chief rider of the Spanish Riding School of Vienna - so in clinics with her you get the best of both worlds! ;D Feel free to drop me an email or PM if you want any further info. Best wishes, Derek
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Jan 16, 2012 17:28:28 GMT 1
I am finding the high hand method very useful with Nancy in the sense that if her attention goes to her environment and her head raises, my lifting the hands instantly gets her back to me, ie, she plays with the bit, softens her jaw and eventually softens her head and becomes flexible. Its about keeping a constant (light) contact as some horses will raise the head to evade the bit, if your hands follow the head (mouth) then there is no evasion and the horse quickly learns where is more comfortable. For me, its also being able to get the horses attention back to me quickly having a bolter, rearer & bucker. But, you have to become very aware of what your horse is doing and what your hands are doing in order for it to be effective... as with most things. An example is last night I lost attention in her for a millisecond, a car went past and she reared and leapt forward (luckilly I stayed put ). If I had been concentrating I would have felt the tension and been able to get her back to 'me'. This is a whole new way of schooling for me and I am finding it very interesting, useful, but hard work. I am having to diminish all my bad habits with my low backward hands.
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Post by KimT on Jan 16, 2012 17:40:03 GMT 1
Thankfully Milburn (my friends horse) is very well trained and definitely a cob that can. lol. He hasn't been ridden for awhile so is a bit stiff but is an excellant teacher and was forgiving with me because I haven't ridden for awhile. lol. I am hoping to have another session soon with him. It is frustrating because I know what I want to do but lack of riding means my body doesn't want to do it.
One of the things that I liked the sound of (at a basic level) is the lack of interfering the rider does in this approach. Emma says I sit still in the saddle and that's because, personally, I don't see the point in 'wiggling' for the sake of it. You just teach your horse to tune out. Also sometimes a horse may take a moment to process what you are asking so sometimes you need to give them a moment.
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Post by holi on Jan 16, 2012 21:32:05 GMT 1
I have used it as well and it does work with my mare. I had a go at western once - its all very similar and really whatever road you use, as long as it is done correctly and without pain to the horse - does it really matter if your hands go higher at times? Too many entrenched camps in my view.
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Post by KimT on Jan 16, 2012 22:00:51 GMT 1
I agree holi that there are too many ways of doing things. One of the reasons I've usually done my own thing but a lot of what Emma was saying to me either made sense or I already did but didn't know the name. I firmly believe in exploring and learning and using what works for us. I don't think I will be signing up to a camp but what I saw/did definitely intrigued me.
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Post by cyberkit on Jan 19, 2012 9:42:21 GMT 1
Well, imagine my surprise when I discovered that me and my horse have been the topic of discussion on here! Clearly Milburn has made a huge impression on you, Kim - and not the normal impression, which is usually to do with his gigantic width... Having dusted off my ancient login, I guess I should make a remark or two. It is dangerous to assess an entire riding system, created over several centuries, on the strength of one half-hour ride on a very unfit horse of a particular physical type. As Derek says, the 'high hands' position for the rider is not the end result, and is not necessary for every type of horse. If we fast-forward a few years to when the lovely Lady could be ridden, I know that I would not ride her in exactly the same way as I ride my horse, because of the difference in her conformation. She would be starting at entirely a different point to Milburn, because she's an utterly different physical type and has challenges which are at variance with him.
And I did mention the name of You-Know-Who - but I turned around and spat afterwards. I think that's safe enough.
On the question of whether there are too many ways of doing things, I tend to disagree. Equitation has developed along many different lines, and at many different historical periods, and each of them can teach us something. The trick is not to become too wedded to any one system, and to keep an open mind. Having knowledge which ranges widely makes us more flexible, which I think is good. But maybe that's just me.
Well, there we go. It's nice to be back. Perhaps I should visit more often. :-)
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Post by holi on Jan 19, 2012 9:55:51 GMT 1
Cyberkit I agree that its good to have varying ways of doing things - what I don't like is when people become entrenched in one way only as there are so many ways! My old instructor, when asked what method did she follow used to say 'Sarah's method' She had studied a lot and did whatever suited that horse at that time while at the same time having an aim - fine by me.
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
Posts: 1,369
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Post by Derek Clark on Jan 19, 2012 10:47:57 GMT 1
Holi said: Smart lady...! ;D Riding horses is a great metaphor for living life, I often think. It can seem complicated and unpredictable as well as being a lot of fun and in the end we all have to find our own way of doing it! The trouble is that finding our own method can take a long, long time, so it can be helpful to have a 'map' that can help us find our way through the maze in the early stages... There is a saying that "There's nothing new in horsemanship". The advantage of studying what others have done before is that it can save time and introduce us to things worth trying that we might never otherwise have thought of. It can also help us avoid going down blind alleys for too long because we can learn from the experiences of others who've tried those ideas before. We have to take what the maps say with a pinch of salt, though, because maybe the mapmaker made the odd mistake too! A good way to get around that problem is to study several different maps and instead of focusing on the differences, try to figure out what they all have in common. of course, relying totally on a set of maps is not the same as developing some real, first-hand experience. Ideas from instructors, books, DVDs, courses, etc are only maps. Just as you would throw away a map once it was no longer necessary for finding your own way home, everyone can (and should!) also put down these equestrian maps once they can find their own way without them. I know some people who will refuse ever to look at a map, even when it's absolutely obvious that they are lost - maybe they're just not willing to admit it. On the other hand, even if you can do very well day to day without using a map, you may encounter the odd situation where you're not sure which way to go and checking a map (or two) can be a useful helping hand to get you going again. Most of the arguments that go on about riding are really just arguments about which 'map' is best . In the end, though, they're all just maps. None of them is the real' horse and he or she is the only one whose judgement really matters.
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Post by sooty on Jan 19, 2012 23:52:52 GMT 1
Hear hear! ;D Welcome back CK, you have been away far too long! Looking forward to a full report of your lesson with Derek
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Post by domane on Jan 20, 2012 0:03:13 GMT 1
Oh I LOVE Milburn..... such a lovely specimen of patchy-cobness ;D
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Post by KimT on Jan 20, 2012 11:10:01 GMT 1
Wow, looks like I've started something. Yes CK you should come back more often.
Looks like I need to clear it up a bit. I am not basing several centuries of horsemanship on my one lesson on Milburn but I liked what I saw/felt and wanted to learn more. Milburn is a star to put up with me and my 'pram' hands very well. lol. In Derek's metaphor I have glanced very quickly at the map and would like to see where it goes. I know Lady will take her own route through the map which is why I would like to learn more and see how things would be applied in different ways. The reason I am intrigued is because I have not seen this 'map' before so would like a better look.
As a wise man once said to me, first you learn the mechanics, then you start to think about it's applications, then you begin to apply it in different situations, then you begin to understand the essence of what you are doing and then finally, you know how to change and mould it for yourself.
I have never really signed up to a particular way of doing things but that does not mean that I can't learn new ways of riding/care/etc and decide which suits me and my horse best. I understand what Holi means about people becoming entrenched in one particular method. I have known people like that.
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