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Post by megant on Jan 3, 2012 13:26:53 GMT 1
I agree this has to be a personal choice dependent on the circumstances of both the owner, the horse and others around it. To argue that anyone has made the 'wrong' choice at such a difficult time is very unfair. I have seen many horses shot and a couple injected. Those who have been injected have all gone smoothly although I am aware this is not always the case. Those who have been shot (many more I have known) have been anything from very calm and quiet to being terrified and rearing up to one pony who ended up being shot in the face and had to be recaught and shot again. This was with very experienced knackerman. I know the reasons I find shooting so distressing (the noise, the flailing on the floor...) happen after the horse is dead but it is something I find extremely difficult to deal with. I feel in some cases in also makes it difficult for the companions to have a proper goodbye as they are distressed by the noise, movement or blood. For my boy I would choose to have him injected as he is completely unfazed by needles and vets, I would want him to go in the field with his friend who has known him for 15 years to be there and I would find having him shot very distressing. If he was nervous of vets, or an emergency arose I would of course do whatever was neccessary to let him go with as little stress as possible.
I also feel that there is nothing wrong with offering a retired horse a few years life in a new home, having worked in a rescue centre the old retired ponies had a wonderful retirement and never seemed distressed by their move. Equally is the horse is destroyed humanely at home it knows nothing about it. The worst is to pass on a horse to an uncertain future.
So I think this video is useful as a piece of information but it should be taken in context and people should be given the freedom to make the best choice for their horse and themselves (as long as their feelings don't override those of the animal).
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Post by jill on Jan 3, 2012 13:28:47 GMT 1
Fair enough to post a video showing people one way, but lets not pretend this thread isn't totally one sided. What you're doing is comparing the best of one method with the worst of another - not a fair comparison and not actually very helpful IMO, no more helpful than someone showing the worst possible abuse of a dually and comparing it to sensitive use of spurs then condemning the dually for it. I've been there when a horse was PTS by injection and it was nothing like you describe. The horse was given an overdose of general anaesthetic, she laid down quietly and was gone, no stressing, no waiting, nothing. I can tell you from having had number GA's myself, all you feel is tired, then nothing, end of. I totally agree with Michelle,having witnesed several PTS by injection. When did anyone witness a horse being anaesthetised and getting distressed - I never have, and a lthal overdose of anaesthetic is no different. IMO there is more scope for stuff to go wrong when shooting, and for me, personally it is just too violent - I have seen both and for a much loved horse I would always opt for injection. We have had this debate before, and I completely agree it is good to get it out there and dispel some of the myths and horror stories. Passing old horses on is another one where the good is good but the bad is awful, and the risk of them getting into the wrong hands is just too great, I would far sooner just put out the lights. If you see it like that then it becomes less of a traumatic thing to consider, and there are plenty of young horses with a future to rescue if you want to.
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Post by jennyb on Jan 3, 2012 13:32:37 GMT 1
This is all a bit close to home for me, having only lost Cosworth the week before Christmas. I won't be checking back on any replies and have no interest in getting into a debate on this.
However, I was prepared to use whichever method was best for Cosworth on the day. I had briefed the vet that he was struggling with his narcolepsy and we were both concerned about sedating an already sleepy horse, so I asked the crem lady to bring her pistol. On the day, Cos was as bright as a button and very alert, so we went with the injection. He was sedated in the field shelter, then I led him out to an area near the gate. I stayed with him until he lost interest in his bucket of polos and was very sleepy - he was still standing. The vet carefully placed the catheter (and I think this is where it has the potential to go wrong - he was very very careful to make sure it was in just the right place), the vet's assistant took the lead rope and they gave him the lethal injection. It was all so peaceful and quick, he went down within minutes and I think was pretty much dead when he hit the floor. There was certainly no stress and no struggling.
Sorry for such a detailed account if it upset anyone, but my experience of the injection was very positive, mainly due to the skill of the vet. I have heard horror stories of horses moving their heads when being shot, and running around the field with their jaw hanging off (sorry to be graphic!), so neither method is completely infallible and we just have to put our trust in the people who come to do the job for us. Which is why, on the day, I had both methods covered for Cos and let the vet decide which one he thought was best for the horse.
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sharon
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by sharon on Jan 3, 2012 14:13:18 GMT 1
I have had two friends horses PTS with lethal injection, one was highly strung & was slightly upset but once needle was in and plunger depressed was gone, the other appeared to be gone long before she hit the floor. Personally I could never have a horse shot, it's personal choice and I am sure we all do our best and what we feel is best for the horse.
Thinking of all those who have lost their beloved horses, coming up to 6 months for me and getting a little easier to talk about.
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Post by zack&buffysmum on Jan 3, 2012 14:20:49 GMT 1
I'm another who would always opt for injection. I had my beautiful old boy pts by injection in october and it was very quiet, calm and peacefull. His head was in my arms and he was eating polo's till he lost concousness and the worst bit (for me) was seeing him hit the ground but by then, I am as sure as I can be, that he had already gone. I would never criticise anyone for choosing differently but I personally could never have a horse shot.
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Post by jen1 on Jan 3, 2012 14:34:23 GMT 1
thankyou for posting Donna for obvious reasons, paul said Billie went out like a light and didnt suffer the faffing of vets ect she was with paul and peter was lovely with her too,
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Post by antares on Jan 3, 2012 14:39:56 GMT 1
I too have recently had to have an old friend pts. I won't say which option I went for as frankly it's nobody's business. I discussed options with the relevant people and my old friend went to sleep very peacefully in the field with his friends close by.
I am actually really upset about 'intelligent' horse people slating others who choose a different method to them.
If anyone reading this has to make the choice in the future then make your choice on what is best for you and your horse and the circumstances you find yourself in at the time and don't be bullied by anyone else who thinks you are making the wrong choice as the right choice is the one that you feel is right
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Post by Karon on Jan 3, 2012 14:46:49 GMT 1
I recently had my old (29) boy PTS by injection - the method I'd choose any time. Vet is very experienced, calm and quiet and, like Jenny B's vet, made sure the catheter was in the right place before starting to inject. My boy was sedated first, and I am sure he was dead before he hit the ground. Certainly he wasn't aware what was going on, and he died with a huge motuhful of grass that he was still chewing when the sedative took effect.
I have had two others PTS by injection, and both times it was also very quick, and I had Rash PTS while on the operating table so she'd have known nothing about it anyway. I have only ever once had a horse shot and would never, ever do that again. That's my personal choice.
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Post by misty on Jan 3, 2012 15:16:35 GMT 1
Just over a year ago my oh's old boy (36/37) passed on. He had his head on my oh's lap and although the vet gave him a drop of juice he would have gone anyway. I would decide the method depending on the horse. We promised our boys (one is still going) that we would never let them go when they got old. They had a good life and if we couldn't keep them for any reason they would be pts together while they were still happy and content.
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Post by Dragonmaster on Jan 3, 2012 15:20:24 GMT 1
This conversation just goes to show there is no one 'right' way. It varies according to circumstances. My goodness that one in the vid was quick. A good way to go. The horse we had to PTS some years ago was already down in the field and very weak, Vet said she would not have lasted the day anyway. But we had a large dog PTS by injection last Feb, and although he was already weak & ill he fought the injection a bit at first and the whole process took about 10 minutes. That was a bit less than pleasant.
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Post by specialized on Jan 3, 2012 15:22:42 GMT 1
I am generally respect the decisions and philosophies of our vets, and they will not shoot a horse - only euthanase by injection because they find it too distressing for themselves and the owners, and there is too much risk of things going wrong. I have been with 3 of our horses when they have been pts by injection and there could be no more peaceful end.
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daisysp8
Grand Prix Poster
People only see what they are prepared to see
Posts: 2,120
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Post by daisysp8 on Jan 3, 2012 15:57:04 GMT 1
It is a personal decision to the owner and the horse involved. Quinn was PTS by the local Huntsman, a gentleman, and that is the way i would choose everytime, unless it was emergency and the vet was there with me and the horse at that exact time, and it needed to be done immediately to stop any suffering.
I may well be going through this again on Friday ... so thank you for that video, pony nutt, it has eased some of my concerns.
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Post by julz on Jan 3, 2012 16:17:55 GMT 1
Another point to think about is that many people choose the injection because they do not want thier horse to enter the food chain, which can only happen if the horse is shot.
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Post by heather on Jan 3, 2012 16:28:00 GMT 1
I can vouch for Andrew absolutely. He has put down several of my old horses over the years, and I have known him since he was knee high to a grasshopper, having grown up about half a mile from me. His motive for getting into this horrible business was to make the end as pain and fear free as possible and he succeeds admirably, especially in the task of putting down the many Dartmoor hill ponies that are surplus and unsaleable ( although there are several groups, including one that I am a member of, trying to stop this happening, and also showing how useful the Hill pony can be).
I was a bit wary of putting up the original thread, especially as Andrew had just put down my old mare Millie, but I felt the educational benefits outweighed the downsides, and that has been proven by the amount of very positive posts on the thread. I am really glad I posted it now, as Andrew has reassured many people who are dreading having their oldies put down. We are very lucky to have him locally.
Heather
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Post by donnalex on Jan 3, 2012 16:35:41 GMT 1
This conversation just goes to show there is no one 'right' way. It varies according to circumstances. My goodness that one in the vid was quick. A good way to go. The horse we had to PTS some years ago was already down in the field and very weak, Vet said she would not have lasted the day anyway. But we had a large dog PTS by injection last Feb, and although he was already weak & ill he fought the injection a bit at first and the whole process took about 10 minutes. That was a bit less than pleasant. My dog Sally was a collie cross springer and had had a stroke. I took her to the vets on a Friday night to be put to sleep. It took ages for her to go, the vet had to keep checking her heart for what seemed like ages. I am in no way slating anyone for choosing injectin for a horse but from personal experience I woud now always choose shooting due to having seen my dog not have a peaceful end and a horse belonging to somene else. Ive probably seen a dozen horses shot now by two different knackermen and there definitely was no 'flailing' of legs or anything remotely like that so my experience of shooting is 100% perfect but having seen two done by injection and watching one in massive massive distress my personal experience is only 50% good. Take into account my own dog (I know she was not a horse so maybe different) and then much later Liza my Doberman bitch I had done by the vet in the back of the pickup where she liked to be which was not very good either and yes maybe I am biased a little but it is a point of view formed only from personal real experiences not scaremongering. Getting back to the TB mare recently shot by the hunt instead of being given away people need to bear in mind that the hunt will have needed paying, more than a hundred pounds probably, so the owner was not being mean when he ordered it done. Giving the horse away would have cost him nothing so he must have felt very strongly that her time was now.
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