verm x herbal wormers anyone use?

[laurac]

After the worming issues I've had I was thinking of using some verm x (herbal wormer) in between usual wormers/counts
Does anyone use it / rate it? any side effects? and will the horses eat the pellets easily!

Many thanks

[Dragonmaster]

Very good. Effective, I got negative worm counts after 2 years on it. (I dont mean it took 2 years, it was just that the first time I had a worm count done they had been on it 2 years)
I use the liquid in the feed. They never notice.

[kizi]

Kinda unrelated, but I gave it to my new ducks! The poultry one obviously! They were adult ducks from a big mixed farm and never prev wormed.
The difference in them a week later was amazing, their feathers had so much more colour and looked a lot healthier in general.
It must be safe too as there is no withdrawal period for eggs so I was please with it. I am going to try a few of the mini ponies on it but couldn't afford them all

[jennyb]

I have had clear worm counts for years, using nothing but an annual dose of Pramox for encysted small redworm and tapeworm. I would NOT use something herbal with no scientific back up for worm control, especially considering the encysted stage of small redworm can lie burrowed in the gut lining and not show up on a faecal egg count! If you choose to use this, then for goodness sake please still do an annual dose for encysted small redworm and tape.

In preference, I would just start using quarterly faecal egg counts to see if your horses actually have a worm burden and need any action against it. If they come back with a medium or high count, then try some Verm X and re-count, to see if it has worked.

[cbx3]

My CB had clear wormcounts on verm x for years.. I agree still test/worm for tape and ERW

[laurac]

jennyb, i was not suggesting using the verm x and not worm counting or using normal wormers, it was in addition

my boy has always had 100% clear worm counts, last one sept, and is always wormed for tapes and ensisted reds and he has just been treated for worms living in his arteries which havent shown up on counts (by 2 injections) and appear to be resistant to usual wormers so i was looking at an extra thing to try as worm counts & chemical wormers have not kept my horse worm free and i also poo pick field twice a day all yr round

[SJpony]

i also use the powdered version along with Diatomaious earth, which is very affective, we are always use the D.E all year round as it has great benfits, but we alternate vermex and chemical wormers. 0 worms for ages

[jennyb]

Sorry Laura, didn't mean to offend! Having seen PM photos of horses with fatal worm burdens, I am very suspicious of herbal wormers which have no scientific testing to back them up, and are regarded with suspicion by the experts!

I'm really intrigued about your boy's arterial worms - what kind of worms were they? Did the vet say that the chemical wormers you had given should have treated the worms?

[laurac]

Dec 29, 2011 16:05:19 GMT 1 jennyb said:

Sorry Laura, didn't mean to offend! Having seen PM photos of horses with fatal worm burdens, I am very suspicious of herbal wormers which have no scientific testing to back them up, and are regarded with suspicion by the experts!

I'm really intrigued about your boy's arterial worms - what kind of worms were they? Did the vet say that the chemical wormers you had given should have treated the worms?

No problem Jenny
It was my oesteo who is also an equine vet who worked it out with my boy, she heard about these worms in germany fairly recently as they can cause back/pelvis problems due to the lack of blood to the gut causing gut problems
My boy has had back/pelvis problems since i got him over 4 yrs ago all the oesteo treatments he has had for over a yr to sort them out havent lasted and they go wrong again even when he isnt in work weirdly after 2 wormer injections 3 weeks apart my boy now has a mobile pelvis first time ever and his gut is improving
She said they are a type of red worm and unless you just happen to worm count at the few days they are in the gut you miss them in a count, she also believes he had a resistent strain as i do use equest / equimax & panacur guard, equitape at the times i am supposed to
She has also treated 5 other horses recently all for the same thing
Its just scared the life out of me they will come back so was thinking of using the herbal wormer in addition as i am now paranoid

[mandal]

Here's a good link put up on laurac's thread. www.horsetalk.co.nz/worming/strongyles.shtml

Large red worm and round worm are the big culprits for wandering through the body. With so much focus on small red worm the dangers of other worms gets lost I feel. I wonder how common migrated worms are? I have a feeling they are quite common but often missed as causes of 'colic' etc.

[laurac]

thanks mandal
they are scary things apparently there are 50 types of red worm i believe, i'm sure there are still things to be found out about these blighters and how they operate

[Dragonmaster]

Jenny, are you sure there is no scientific evidence re herbal wormers? I think there may be, Verm-X do a lot of work on their product.

However there is this 'issue' between the scientific community and the 'holistic / herbal / natural medicine community.

The scientists say that unless you have done lots of lab tests, blind trials etc etc then a product 'has no scientific proof' that it works. But that is just that: 'scientific proof', done by scientists. It is not 'NO proof'.

On the other hand herbalists, aromatherapists, homeopaths, and others who use plant-based remedies have got plenty of proof that their products work.... it's called 1000s of years of practical use and observation of the efficacy of the plant / herb / oil / tincture.

Now the scientists argue that years ago all sorts of strange things were thought to 'cure' that did not cure. This is true, but it is because the practice of 'herbalism' was frowned upon by the Church and stamped out, so in the West a lot of knowledge was lost, that was retained in Arabian countries and of course the Far East where the Church had no influence.

So nowadays we do not use 'dried frog powder' to cure the Plague as we know it has no benefit, but we do use lavender to calm & to cleanse and to heal as we know it does work.

Also, many 'laboratory produced' medicines are a result of trying to imitate the naturally occurring chemicals from plants - eg aspirin from salicilic acid which comes from willow tree bark, and heart medicines that copy the digitalis chemicals in foxglove.

I also believe - feel free to disagree - that the pharmaceutical industry has a secret agenda to prevent us self medicating with plants as they cannot make money from it - but that's just me seeing conspiracies .... but if true they would have a vested interest in telling us 'herbal' things don't work.

At the end of the day - you pays yer money & you takes yer choice - and my choice is Verm-x with worm counts

(and dowsing ..... hides head under pillow....)

ps ... I've no problem with using chemical wormers as necessary ... alongside Verm-X, as I don't have an issue with taking prescribed medicine occasionally if required, it just means we can put less chemicals into our horses & ourselves. Also Verm-X state their product does not affect tapeworm so you have to dose for that separately.

[jennyb]

I'm aware of all of those controversies and don't want to detract from the OP's thread. I am not saying I am against any alternative therapies, I actually use homeopathy on myself and my horse and have used herbs in the past. But ONLY in conjunction with normal approaches. I would be very, very wary of placing total reliance on a herbal wormer. I have heard case studies of horses who had been regularly wormed with Verm-X and then subsequently (and I mean years later) found to have very serious worm problems. But I can't remember the exact details and have no reference material to direct you to! Worming is something I take great interest in and am lucky to have some very educated friends who specialise in it (including one of the only non-vet students to ever get access to the Masters parasitology module at Liverpool Uni).

You do pay your money and take your choice, indeed, but on such a potentially serious topic of worming (I say serious, as the consequences of getting it wrong can be very serious indeed for the horse) I will stick to the advice from my very expert friends.

[Dragonmaster]

I think that basically we agree with each other, actually Jenny. Just coming at it from different angles. It's all about balance.

[jennyb]

I just had a look at their website. Clever use of wording, but no link to any trials. So I have emailed them to ask. I would be extremely surprised if they had done any and actually proved that their product works - proper trials and licences cost a lot of money and they wouldn't be able to offer the product so cheaply if they had!

But yes, essentially in agreement. I get very twitchy about complimentary therapies being used in isolation to, and at the exclusion of, conventional medicine, as quite often it is the horse who pays the price when mistakes are made. That said, I remain convinced that a few homeopathic pills got Gazdag completely sound from his ligament injury when conventional medicine hadn't got him quite there! So an open mind is good, as is education and staying abreast of all current research.