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Post by Gail&Merlin on Dec 24, 2011 1:52:05 GMT 1
Insurance for loaners, would you insist? We are going to be loaning Bob and have a potential home for him, however the person said she never insures her horses for vets. Has BHS Gold membership and rider insurance but thinks that insurance companies worm their way out of paying a lot of things these days, I have to agree in part. But I am wondering for those of you that loan your horses do you expect loaners to have insurance?
We have insurance at the moment we could keep going but would it be valid if he was not here or ridden by us?
Would you give tack and rugs, how do you deal with it if they break it or damage it?
Any advice you can give on any other aspect of loaning as we have never loaned one out before.
Has anyone got a good loan agreement they can let me have?
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Post by jen1 on Dec 24, 2011 2:49:07 GMT 1
yes i would insist on insurance, or you could keep paying half towards your self, however she may have a point if there is something that would put restrictions on full vets insurance for bob,
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Post by jen1 on Dec 24, 2011 2:49:26 GMT 1
i think jenny b might have one might be wrong
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Post by specialized on Dec 24, 2011 9:04:50 GMT 1
BHS have a good agreement that you can download and adapt. I would insist on insurance for loss of animal, it would be up to the loanee to decide how to set up against the risk of vet fees - as long as the agreement states they are responsible to cover vet costs. Again with tack and rugs, it needs to be covered in the agreement who is responsible for what.
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Post by jill on Dec 24, 2011 9:08:47 GMT 1
I have a loan agreement I can email you if you mail me your address. It includes a requirement to insure so that cost is never an issue when considering any options for treatment. The BHS one doesn't include the statement that the horse is not to be sold. Goes without saying but Horsewatch have advised that without that, if the horse goes missing while on loan the police regard it as a civil matter. With it they see it as fraud. As regards insurance, for veterans I don't always insist on seeing their insurance. I have one loaner who was badly let down by an insurance company - her current loan horse is over 20 and I know she will find the money for any treatment, but invasive treatment wouldn't be advisory at that age anyway, and the horse has no intrinsic value.
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Post by Andrew Moy on Dec 24, 2011 9:57:34 GMT 1
If it were me I think I would carry on insuring my horse and perhaps ask for a contribution, in that way I would be confident that if anything happend my horse would be covered. Otherwise if something happens and the horse is not insured and the person loaning cannot or will no pay for the treatment who will end up footing the bill and then faced with a legal wrangle trying to get money back from the loanee?
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chloe
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Post by chloe on Dec 24, 2011 10:19:50 GMT 1
I have a loan contract for Nelly, who I have on loan, which states she must be comprehensively insured for her full value, and I had to give her owner a copy of the insurance paperwork when I collected her. I have her insured with KBIS on a plan which states that whilst I am her keeper and responsible for the cost of her insurance and responsible for informing the insurance company of any medical issues, she is only on loan and therefore her owners details are also included. When I first got her, her owner sent her with tack but with the increased workload she outgrew the saddle quickly and I bought her a full set of tack of my own and returned the owners' to her. I've had Nelly for over a year now and the agreement is working really well - her owner knows where she is and is welcome to visit without notice (the yard know she's on loan too and have her owner's details to ensure they allow the right people onto the yard), or at a pre-specified time if she wants me to be there too. We're also friends on Facebook so she can see all the updates and photos I post of her and keep track that way. Loaning can be absolutely fabulous but insist on a loan agreement, insurance, see their driving licence and a utility bill to confirm their identity and address, check up regularly (at first at least), keep in touch and be on hand to help with any issues. I think it's when these things don't happen that things tend to go wrong. Good luck!
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wills
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Post by wills on Dec 24, 2011 10:35:12 GMT 1
If your loan agreement states that the loaner is responsible for the cost of any vet treatment then really it should be up to them whether they insure or not. I had loafs of hastle trying to insure my horse (on loan) as i wasn't the registered owner, but that was a good few years ago. I think however i would Carry on insuring if i had to loan either of mine - best check with your insurance company if it makes a difference ware the horse is or who's caring for him etc.
The BHS loan agreement covers most bases, you could have a look at that and use the bits that apply to you. Make sure you have the most simple basic care stated in there i.e horse to be seen my registered farrier/trimmer every x weeks. And as Jill said make sure you put in that the horse is not or resale etc. I also have a few different loan agreements i could email you if you wanted.
I definitely would loan with tack - and state in agreement if there's anything you don't want used on the horse - with both my loan horses my agreement came with a list of equipment, its condition and any damage/marks already done as agreed by me and the owner. We also took photos of the more valuable items and had a copy each. I notified owner straight away if any major damage was done and wasvrexponsible for maintaining and repair. My agreement stated it had to be returned in a "good and working condition"
I would also make sure the horse is micro chipped and freeze marked, you just never know
If i had to loan i would make any potential loaner jump through hoops ;D i have had horses on loan myself - one owner wanted me to send copies of chiro notes every 6 months ;D. References,home checks etc are all essential. I'm sure you will know if they are the right person, if they want the horse that much they will not be put of by all the checks etc. Good luck.
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Post by Furiey on Dec 24, 2011 11:20:07 GMT 1
Do you want to get into the situation where the horse needs a life saving operation that would be covered on insurance and that you would allow the horse to have, but the loanee refuses to avoid the cost? That is the worst case scenario.
To avoid this your options are to insure the horse yourself (and maybe charge the loanee all, part, or none of the cost) or to insist the loanee insures the horse to the level you would expect.
Whe I part loaned a horse for a short period, the owner continued insuring to ensure if anything did happen he got the treatment she would expect (yes there were existing exclusions) and charged me at cost.
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daisysp8
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People only see what they are prepared to see
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Post by daisysp8 on Dec 24, 2011 13:49:01 GMT 1
Do you want to get into the situation where the horse needs a life saving operation that would be covered on insurance and that you would allow the horse to have, but the loanee refuses to avoid the cost? That is the worst case scenario. This .... i would check with the existing insurance company, and just explain that you want to keep him covered. They will probably ask for the third party (loaners) address, and also the new details of where he`ll be kept. I`m sure they`d carry it on though. I `d want to do it for peace of mind i think.
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Post by specialized on Dec 24, 2011 14:27:54 GMT 1
Just to make sure you set up any agreement correctly, the owner of the horse is the loaner and the other party is the loanee. I think that is why the BHS agreement uses the terms Owner and Borrower, as loaner and loanee are easy to mix up - as can be seen in previous posts.
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Post by loubylou on Dec 24, 2011 17:47:00 GMT 1
Lola is still insured by us, and we pay the cost of this entirely. We felt this ensured that she would definitely be covered, especially if she came back to us and turned out to need treatment (obviously you get the couple of weeks with a new policy that they are not covered) and that any treatment she needed would be possible. Even if the loaner is down to pay all costs, if they had colic surgery to pay for for example, and they literally did not have the money then what? We felt we wanted to know for sure Lola was insured, and this would never be an issue.
I would either insist on insurance, and ask for a copy of the certificate (even then it could be cancelled at any point) or keep her insured yourself, but put it on policy she is out on loan (we have this with NFU no problems)
We supplied tack, but took photos of it all, and wrote into agreement that it was loaners responsibility to look after it and return in same condition or an equivalent. And any loss/theft etc was theirs to pay for.
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Azrael
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Post by Azrael on Dec 24, 2011 18:32:02 GMT 1
I've used the BHS loan agreement for Jay with a few changes.
I've put in that loaner is responsible for all vet bills, it's up to them to insure or cover the cost themselves. I've never insured her. First loaners did insure, I don't think I've got around to asking current loaners if they've insured or if I have I've forgotten the answer! My main reason for loaning is that she's got her own human and is doing stuff and one less for me to do and excercise rather than financial. I doubt it's something I'd ever have to deal with but if she did come back and get me vet bills she'd be covered by my bank account in the same was as she was before I loaned her out. I've only got one insured and that's very likely to get cancelled as soon as I get around to it so wouldn't require a loaner to insure beyond 3rd party like BHS or similar.
I sent tack and rugs with her but it's not stuff I'd be especially bothered about if anything did get damaged or lost. The loan agreement does list tack and value and that it should come back with pony. I haven't listed the rugs on the loan agreement, I know rugs get wrecked sometimes and they weren't fancy ones in the first place.
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Post by tikkatonks on Dec 24, 2011 18:54:29 GMT 1
I would keep your insurance going, in case they return your horse suddenly and you then discover there is a problem.
As for tack etc, I included a clause in my modified BHS agreement to say that damaged tack had to be replaced/ or paid for in cash. I listed the price of every item she went with.
I would also weigh tape the horse and include that measurement in the contract and give some rules about food and weight loss/ gain.
Make the contract very detailed and be absolutely clear what you expect in terms of care and maintenance, and what they can and can't do with your horse.
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l17
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Post by l17 on Dec 24, 2011 19:06:11 GMT 1
I loaned a horse who unfortunately had a health problem. I had taken out my own insurance at the request of the owner, but also for my own piece of mind. This was a great comfort at the time because I only had to pay the excess and the insurance paid the claim which came to over £2000. The owner had specific requests regarding referrals and treatment. if I had been paying out of my own pocket this could have been more awkward.
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