Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 12, 2011 18:56:56 GMT 1
Hi Rik,
Thanks for your comments. There will always be differences of taste and opinion on these details, though I do agree with you that comparing those two images is a far from perfect test.
It's clear that you and I evaluate the same events and stories through spectacles made on opposite sides of the Rhine and, of course, we'll never know what really went on until someone invents a time machine and we can all go back and see for ourselves...
Anyway, it's been great chatting with you. Nice to have a polite difference of opinion, for once, lol! ;D
Best wishes,
Derek
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jul 13, 2011 9:05:05 GMT 1
Such an interesting thread! So many good points made!
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Post by jennyb on Jul 13, 2011 10:41:48 GMT 1
It seems my skill in creating a thread which attracts debate has not diminished...... ;D ;D ;D
Good discussion. I think Rik is not alone in finding Baucher's first manner very harsh, I have heard similar comments in the past. There were many good things within the second manner though, which are still in use today. Derek makes a good point, that we will never really know exactly what was done and who thought what without going back in time! It is interesting reading, and discussing, nonetheless.
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Post by peppertop on Jul 13, 2011 10:53:00 GMT 1
Very interesting thread!
Annie, you are not alone.. I remember when I joined the TTT seeing Andrew Days name on the instructors list, I was shocked as have seen him teach in the past. I thought, oh good, he must have seen the light!... He hasn't..
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Post by jennyb on Jul 13, 2011 11:25:22 GMT 1
Hang on, I really don't like the implication that I would train with someone who is abusive to horses. I can only speak from experience and say that I find Andrew very knowledgeable and very kind. Peppertop, you and I have often had very different opinions about trainers! It's all personal preference at the end of the day, but I just felt I had to comment after the above post - my findings and observations do NOT match yours. I have not only ridden with him myself, but watched him teach others and also watched him ride in competition and have never seen him be rough with a horse.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jul 13, 2011 22:02:16 GMT 1
Just on draw reins ... very interesting - personally I haven't found a need for them so far but re. 'intended for flexion each side' rather then 'head between girth' - that's exactly how I remember Caroline Bradley (beautiful rider of show jumpers) use them many years ago - it's back to the Monty adage of it's not equipment that's the villain so much as the 'hands that hold'. Here's an interesting piece www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/auxiliary_reins.html
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 13, 2011 23:16:51 GMT 1
Indeed! As mentioned in the article, the paradox is that "the right hands", in which all these sorts of gadgets can be safely used are exactly those hands which can create the effects without needing the gadget in the first place. In every case, the gadget was invented as an attempted shortcut by someone who already knew how to solve the problem, not a solution to an otherwise insoluble problem. There was an interesting bit of research done a few years ago which revealed a fascinating feature of human nature: in a survey of business people, while 94% believed they were extremely good at doing their jobs, 83% also believed that other people in their business were not sufficiently good at their jobs. If you think about it, that means we are pretty much all likely to be in someone else's 83%... On the subject of what's classical and what isn't, most people revert to La Gueriniere as being the 'father' of dressage due to him writing the book that is regarded as 'the bible' in 1733. In the book (School of Horsemanship) he says a number of very interesting things: among others, "The hand is the primary aid and must always act first" and "I deny the utility of anything except a correctly educated hand" (in other words, don't use gadgets... ).
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 13, 2011 23:36:57 GMT 1
Also, I do agree that there was quite a bit of stuff in Baucher's early work that was quite harsh. However, I also think he tends to get a lot of unfair stick for things that he didn't actually do - for example, inventing rolkur, lol! Seeger (who's work was quoted earlier) more or less championed the anti-Baucher campaign when Baucher went to Germany himself to show what he could do. There is a theory that his vicious opposition was motivated as much by the challenge of Baucher claiming to achieve in mere weeks what Seeger took years to accomplish. The debate that has raged ever since is whether the quality of horse that Baucher produced was equal to the quality of horse that Seeger (and the other German-line masters) produced. There are shelves full of books making the case on both sides and that's what we could only ever really evaluate for ourselves if we went back in time... As for the Seeger's assertion that Baucher's influence on French riding would be negligible... In the 1980's, General Durand, as head of the Cadre Noir, once defined French horsemanship as being "the best of Baucher grafted onto a classical (meaning: La Gueriniere) trunk". The interesting thing is, many with real practical experience of both methods will say that horses all seem to love Baucher's (best) work (assuming it's well done, of course) whereas it's only ever humans that tend to find it objectionable...
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jul 14, 2011 12:09:59 GMT 1
But Derek - how do you define 'gadget'? Surely a bit is a gadget? Dictionary Definition 'small useful instrument'.
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Rik
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Post by Rik on Jul 14, 2011 13:04:02 GMT 1
I really shouldn’t get into this but Derek I think your assertions need to be debated, give me time and I’ll get back to you on them but for now It seems to me the difference in spectacles is not the geographical location of manufacture but the century of manufacture. If it was geographical, Fillis is an English born Frenchman and Nolan is a Canadian born Scot, the Rhine is nowhere to be seen
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 14, 2011 14:01:12 GMT 1
The woman that used to own Casper gave me his full wardrobe - and this included a pair of draw-reins, and I have to say I have recently found them to come in very useful!! I have two dogs so I can clip them both on and only have one hand free :-)!! Everything has it's place!!
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 14, 2011 20:10:34 GMT 1
Hi Kelly, Yes, good point! I agree we could call a bit a gadget of sorts too... along with saddles, spurs, whips, headcollars, etc. I think my comment above, still applies, though... We can ride horses without any of the above but it will often be harder and sometimes less optimal for the horse - eg saddles which spread the weight and thereby reduce pressure, though of course that assumes that the saddle fits properly... Even a bit is a shortcut, assuming the user has a level of skill. It allows us to ride a less than perfectly trained horse from the saddle rather than having to perfect the control on the ground first and it also enables a way of relaxing very contracted horses in a very short time. A further benefit is enabling a very close relationship with the horse's mind which I'm not sure can be replicated otherwise, but of course maybe I'll change my mind on that in the future. Neither of these is essential, but I think both are pretty darned useful... It's always a question of making an informed choice from the options available. When it comes to other gadgets like draw-reins, etc, I'm sure you'll have noticed I never say they are 'bad', just that I choose not to use them
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 14, 2011 20:13:06 GMT 1
Hi Rik, I have a sneaky feeling that you are well aware that it was the geographical origin of the principles and accompanying literature I was referring to... Always happy to debate. Shall we let some horses be the judges, though...? Best wishes, Derek
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Rik
Elementary Poster
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Post by Rik on Jul 15, 2011 11:22:30 GMT 1
Derek it seems to me you are looking at these event’s from the 21st century when to get the most from them a contemporary view may be more helpful. Baucher was criticized my many of the great horsemen of the time and post his lifetime. One such critic was Louis Seeger as previously stated… He writes in great detail, for example Supporters of Bauchers methods at the time and people today would deny Seegar’s views, yet both Seegar and Bauchers supporters are correct. As was previously said Baucher was at a turning point in history with the horse, in part due to the introduction of blood into other breeds and part Baucher himself. Nolan describes it best imo…. These image’s from Pluvinel’s work are quite good visually. What Baucher and us all as we are inseparably entwined with his works if we realise it or not look for or consider correct is not what the old school looked for or considered correct, both were correct with their assessment from where they were coming from. If we come back to criticism of Baucher, Fillis devoted a whole chapter to the problems with the great mans work and he considered himself a follower of Baucher, An example of the calibre of Fillis if anyone is not aware of him. There is much that could be said on many things but I think it best to leave it there or it will never end. *None of the text or pics are in copyright*
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Post by lisap on Jul 15, 2011 14:10:51 GMT 1
Interesting quotes, Rik, and fascinating that Louis Seeger observed the horse's way of going using Baucher's methods as hollow, hind legs trailing etc.
I too have observed horses working in this way using this type of method, where the hand is all and the leg is non-existent. Indeed, some of M Karl's students in Germany were riding horses that were moving like this, with the same observations being made in the passage - ie stiff and not springy.
Now, I have also observed M Karl riding, and the horses move beautifully and sweetly for him. But, he is not just using his hand. He is using hand without leg and leg without hand, which is not the same as only using the hand!
There are other trainers too who show in videos and photographs, horses that are poorly muscled along their toplines, hollow and stiff backed, with stiff hocks and lack of spring, while espousing these 'French' methods.
My own trainer is French trained through and through, but while working to achieve willingness, suppleness and obedience, he continues to stress the importance of the horse also thinking forward, and moving actively and with impulsion and purpose. Interestingly, he does not raise his hands nearly as often or as high as M Karl, and one of his many pet phrases is "Activate your horse!", ie ride forward from the leg.
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