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Post by zack&buffysmum on Jun 14, 2011 10:40:11 GMT 1
There is a horse on our yard (NOT mine I hasten to add) that has the most awfull feet. He's a TB, about 8 years old and he has feet like dinner plates, that are always cracked and cant keep shoes on for more than a couple of weeks. His diet seems to consist of grass (out 24/7 at the moment) and unmollassed speedybeet. I know this because I was looking after him for a few weeks while his owners wife was seriously ill in hospital. His owner is now looking after him again but told me yesterday that the horse had lost a shoe AGAIN and was saying what awfull shape his feet are in, and is blaming the farrier. His farrier does 2 other horses that i know of and one of them is a TB like the horse in question and his feet look absolutely fine. I did suggest that some Biotin would probably help but I'm also wondering if his diet is causing the problem. The horse looks fine in every other way - it's just these feet. Every one else i know who feeds any sort of beet, feeds it as an extra in the winter, this is the only horse i know who seems to be on it (and nothing else apart from hay or grass) all year round. I'm hoping some of you lovely peeps could advise as to whether the problem could be diet related, as I don't feel in any way 'qualified' to advise anyone else on how they shoul be feeding their horse.
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Post by laurac on Jun 14, 2011 11:00:26 GMT 1
Yes it could well be diet related form what Ive read
24x7 on good grazing isnt good for their feet unfortunately for some horses, and they do better on restricted grazing or grazing with muzzle and then soaked hay Magnesium is good for feet too I believe as well as making sure the horse has all the right mins & vits (I use pink powder as a balancer) I think she should stop the speedy beat it still has suger in it unless double rinced
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 11:09:37 GMT 1
Unless the horse has some sort of intolerance to speedibeet I doubt it'll make a differece. It has far less sugar in it than most grass and hay. Also, what condition is the horse in?
Too much grass can definitely cause thier feet to splay out in spring, how long as this been going on?
Having said that I know of some trimmers and farriers who are excellent at their jobs when presented with good feet, present them with bad ones and they're out of their comfort zone and do nothing to help.
I did use NAF Pro Feet on my TB who consistently lost shoes and had dreadful feet and it derfinitely improved the strength of his hoof wall, but it won't help if the trim isn't good enough or if the problem is too much grass.
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Post by mags on Jun 14, 2011 11:35:46 GMT 1
I would look at two aspects of the diet. One would be sugar levels. Speedibeet should be fine, but too much grazing might be a problem. Too much sugar in the diet can lead to weak laminae and a poor white line connection. Do you see ripples in the hoof wall? Is the hoof wall dished/flared? This might be an indication. The other thing is horn quality. From what you write, it sounds like that horn quality is also poor since the horse can't keep a shoe on. In order to grow a good quality hoof wall, the horse needs adequate protein, vitamins and minerals in the diet. Pasture and hay are often deficient in some of the trace minerals, and if the horse is only getting pasture and speedibeet, it might benefit from a supplement. Copper and zinc in particular are important for good skin and horn quality, and often low in pasture. Ideally, you'd want to do an analysis to see what, if anything, is missing in the pasture. Biotin is a B vitamin, and most horses without digestive problems that eat a forage-based diet should be able to get enough B vitamins from the bacteria living in their gut. Supplementing won't hurt, but you may waste your money.
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Post by horsesfirst on Jun 14, 2011 11:47:32 GMT 1
Um - where do I start? V. high proportion of 'splatty' (technical term! ) are related to LGL - ie too much sugar usually from grass or hay but can be from cereal based feeds. Michellep is quite correct; the sugar in speedibeet (and Kwik Beet etc) is much lower than most grass or hay - and is actually a recommended feed on the ECIR group. Not to be confused with regular molassed sugar beets which are the devil in a bucket. There can be a problem with excess iron - which starts with the local grass, water and forage - but that is for another day. But one reason why TB's have a reputation for terrible feet, is not just their propensity to hide LGL under their shoes, but also that their LGL can be as much related to other digestive problems which can be harder to winkle out and resolve than your average fat pony. One of the most common problems I find with TB's is hidden stress. They may seem fine as pasture potatoes, but some simple tests can show that all is not as well as we might have hoped. For the budgetary challenged observation of droppings, touch sensitivity etc can give useful clues. For those with more in the bank it is possible to run some bloods which might help. One of the things you can do is to put the horse on the ECIR emergency diet - and then instead of just magnesium and salt, feed a good quality general purpose supplement which has a high level of Mag, copper and zinc. If the hind gut is working then it should not be necessary to feed any B vitamins (such as biotin) as these are a by product of normal hind gut fermentation of fibre. I will often feed FFF charcoal and yea sacc in combination for a month plus whilst monitoring changes in droppings and feet. If the feet are picking up then the healing angle will be maintained and the horse's ability over more challenging terrains will improve as will the texture and density of horn. Then you need a decent hoof care professional to maintain the manicure............ plus anyone worth the salt can explain all of the above rather more articulately and with pictures
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Post by horsesfirst on Jun 14, 2011 11:48:25 GMT 1
oh and low sugar beet like speedibeet is a good all year round horse consumable - subject to not being over fed and being fed fresh.
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Post by zack&buffysmum on Jun 14, 2011 13:17:52 GMT 1
Thanks for your input everyone. I'm now wondering if it is the grazing. He is in an enormous field on his own (he has 'neighbours' but no-one else helping him to eat it!) His feet have never looked good, even to my very inexperienced eyes but they have definitely got worse this year. Till last autumn he was sharing the field with a fat cob, but the cob's owner moved to another yard leaving this horse the field all to himself! I know he has had laminitus once before, shortly after his present owner bought him (I think he's owned him for about 5 years). I'll have a chat with him about restricting his grazing and getting him a suppliment.
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Post by Yann on Jun 14, 2011 13:24:59 GMT 1
If the horse is anything like mine too much grass can make them go splat, in fact we usually go through an annual cycle of splatting in early summer and then growing normal feet back by early winter, particularly if I don't restrict grazing. Dealing with infection and feeding a hoof supplement may well both help, but too much good grazing is the cause,
I've seen several Tbs with the same thing going on, gut trouble may well be a part of it as Horsesfirst suggests. Unfortunately most farriers seem to dismiss any link between diet and feet, and then get the blame for doing a poor job.
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Post by mandal on Jun 14, 2011 13:25:58 GMT 1
Quick answer going by my splatty hoof TB... it's the grass at the yard that is the main culprit.
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Post by Hannah on Jun 14, 2011 15:36:58 GMT 1
Almost definitely grass. I have three neds, TB in overnight and muzzled in the day, feet fine; NF pony on grass full time, muzzled 12 hours at a time, feet fine; retired TB on grass full time, feet splatted in April. All on the same field and same feed (but different quantities obviously). Some horses can be sensitive to un-mollassed sugar beet, one of mine is
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Bay Mare
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Post by Bay Mare on Jun 16, 2011 7:11:37 GMT 1
Speedibeet can still contain between 5-7% sugars so has to be factored in with the total sugars. It's most likely to be lush grass that's the main problem but the Speedibeet could be adding to the problem. My mare is sensitive to Speedibeet too
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Post by mandal on Jun 16, 2011 9:29:16 GMT 1
I'd take her off grass for a month and give soaked hay and see. There may well be mineral deficiencies or imbalances, this is where I am with Sophie now. Her hooves are hugely improved after two and a half months totally off grass, they are no longer totally splat and have concavity with the cracks not continuing up the wall at all and growing out. I'm going to get my grass tested as although when on grass at previous homes we've had her hooves weren't perfect (lol) they didn't react so badly to grass as they seem to do here. The other two horses I had on grass have also got white line problems.
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pd
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Post by pd on Jun 16, 2011 15:29:11 GMT 1
Great thread, and its so good to see that we all agree on what the root cause is. I am erring towards trying charcoal for some TBs with difficult feet, what is FFF? and is this charcoal like the stuff on BBQ?s and if so, how on earth do you get a horse to eat it
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Post by mandal on Jun 16, 2011 15:56:16 GMT 1
www.finefettlefeed.com/You use activated charcoal not barbeque charcoal. I toyed with the idea of using charcoal (activated carbon) used for cleaning alcohol but decided against it.
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pd
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Post by pd on Jun 19, 2011 21:53:21 GMT 1
ta
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