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Post by hazelhorse on Jan 11, 2011 7:11:25 GMT 1
This is so true. I don't know quite why but I seem to collect people on my livery yard who have issues with their horses. Most of those are easily helped and it is humans that have had a total misconception about the horses concerned. I have two pony liveries who arrived with unhappy owners who had been told that their ponies were dangerous unsuitable ponies who should not be allowed near a child. Within a month or so they have become two of the most sought after perfect children's ponies around.
I have a lady with a mare who has been through a professional show jumpers yard though who is seriously damaged. This could be the most lovely mare imaginable and we still hope to help her back to being that. The 'SJ' is renowned for her rough tactics locally and I have witnessed her beating a horse and reported her for it. This little mare has a multitude of handling issues and when she came would attack if you went out to catch her, would kick and bite if you came near etc. She is now a much happier girl but touching her legs is still difficult. She will allow a brush now but approaching to lift them still results in her lying down. At least she doesn't throw herself down in panic anymore but the cue of touching a leg still results in extreme reactions not a gentle lift.
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Post by SarahW on Jan 11, 2011 9:08:10 GMT 1
I am not sure to what extent a word could become a poisoned cue to a horse although I think a tone of voice could. I am going to be contraversial here but I don''t think that many horses really do listen and understand verbal cues in isolation.
I have demonstrated this many times with owners who say that their horses understand the word 'back'. I can get them to stand by their horse and say the word 'back' and the horse will do absolutely nothing. However, when you watch how they say the word 'back' normally, it is always accompanied by some body language whether deliberate or inadvertent - some energy at least. THen I demonstrate that I can use the same body language and the word 'peechay' which is Hindi for 'back' and the horse will back.
So, my conclusion would be that we might poison a non-verbal cue and we could even poison a tone of voice, but a set word with horses, I don't think so.
I do accept that horses become more finely tuned to word if they are clicker trained (or if you take one of their senses away partially - for example blinkered driving horses) but I think it still is more to do with the tone, energy and body language behind it. Accordingly you should be looking more at the non-verbal cues that you use than the words that you use as you could use the same word with a different tone without the risk of it having become a poisoned cue (because in my opinion it has very little meaning to them) but you would need to make sure that you changed your non-verbal cue so that that wasn't poisoned.
Off out for the day now, so look forward to reading more. However, if you belive your horse understands voice commands in isolation, please test it and video it!
p.s. Am spending the day with the firemen!!
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Amanda Seater
Grand Prix Poster
Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
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Post by Amanda Seater on Jan 11, 2011 10:04:23 GMT 1
Yes I agree with you Sarah to be honest. We can poison words for humans and tone with perhaps the shape of a word with body language for horses.
Now firemen sarah -I am officially jealous!! men in uniform- hmm not a poisoned association for me.....
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Post by tomrabbit on Jan 11, 2011 10:26:34 GMT 1
So, my conclusion would be that we might poison a non-verbal cue and we could even poison a tone of voice, but a set word with horses, I don't think so. I think you're right, Sarah. I do use verbal cues a lot with my pony, both on the ground and when riding, and I like to kid myself that he understands the words, but the tone of voice is absolutely crucial. Think about the 'and' we use before transitions when lungeing, and then the different pitch of the voice when we ask for a downward or upwards transition. I've used these words with the same tone when riding, and they work. There's probably an instinctive lightening of the seat, or shift in body weight too, although I've tried keeping the leg/hand cues to a minimum. I would like to try this now with different words for 'trot', 'canter' etc..., but we've been snow or ice bound since the end of November, so no sign of working (or playing!) with my horses any time soon. However, when I can, I'm going to try using different words to see what happens! However, I was also thinking about riding school horses in a group lesson, who will transition at the verbal command from the instructor, pretty much regardless of what the rider is doing. How many times in a kids lesson do you hear an instructor saying she's going to ask for a 'T-R-O-T' shortly, to try and stop the ponies from pre-empting the command?! Are they understanding the word, or is it just that they know the format of the lessons, and if they are walking now, they're going to have to trot or stop next?! I remember once (a long time ago) riding a stunning RDA horse in a lesson who was a nightmare. Completely dead to the leg, and without carrying 2 schooling whips to tickle both his sides at the same time, he did nothing, and even then, not much response. But I heard that if the person in the middle gave him verbal commands, he was perfect, and the RDA riders loved him. Disabled riders may not have full use of their legs to give lower body cues, so verbal cues are essential. Perhaps there are some disabled riders on this forum who can confirm that the tone of the verbal cue rather than the word itself is the most important thing? I know we definitely have some deaf members - perhaps they could shed further light on this? Do horses respond to verbal cues alone from a profoundly deaf person? Another interesting experiment would be to take a horse that had been trained in a non-English speaking country, and see how it responds to English commands without visual aids. Lots of food for thought!
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Post by Kelly Marks on Jan 11, 2011 12:48:26 GMT 1
We've had two Horse Psychology project on whether horses understand voice commands because students became convinced that some of the horses at Hartsop were listening to me and not them. However, once the body language was taken out of the scenario there was no response at all. It could be argued the body language provided the motivation and it would be interesting to try this with entirely positive reinforcement. Also I plan to do a positive reinforcement study on horses following your eye movements.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 13:16:35 GMT 1
This is really interesting as my horse has given such bad reactions to leg aids in the past I've been riding without using my legs. So, when long lining I used voice commands with body language, with the intention that when I got on board I could continue to use my voice. Interestingly, now I'm riding saying walk on works fine, I do pair it with lifting my weight forwards slightly but just the change in my weight alone isn't enough.
I might see if I can video it at the weekend!
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pip
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by pip on Jan 11, 2011 13:27:04 GMT 1
When I bought my youngster I knew he had been long reined and lunged before the age of 2. Even now, at 12, if he hears the sound of metal tinkling on the concrete (think of some tack with a metal catch dragging on the ground) he will tense up. This was obviously the sound he associated with his work. Also if he gets confused with something I ask him he will go into a certain pose.
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Post by Yann on Jan 11, 2011 13:56:28 GMT 1
Has anyone got any specific examples of poisoned cues operating with horses? I get the principle (I think), but it would be helpful to get a better handle on how it might operate in practice.
I don't know if it's just a coincidence that most of the discussion, research and examples seem to be about dogs rather than horses. We're wired up in a similar way to dogs, but horses aren't and I don't know if that makes any difference? One would assume that a conventional horse keeping setting would be rich in poisonings (so to speak) but horses, fortunately for us, seem for the most part to be very good at getting on and getting along.
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Post by fiddydodah on Jan 11, 2011 23:18:22 GMT 1
Hi, yes Sarah I can see how dogs can be more wired for sound (we know a song about that........... no I'm not a Cliff fan really!) commands and horses more in tune with body language and aids that accompany the word. I missed what had previously been said re poisonous cues and focused on the idea of dogs, Doh! And not the fact we use other types of cues for horses and a mixture and lots of other things going on as well! Even when thinking about the command word "stand" there are other factors that the horse could perceive as the cue i.e. on ground handling the act of putting the line on the ground, or even gathering it up in maybe a different way to get ready to put on the ground. Kelly's study will be very interesting.
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Post by cassiejane on Jan 11, 2011 23:39:17 GMT 1
I think the interesting thing about the poisoned cues, and the language issues is that its all about the perception of the pupil, one mans meat is another mans poison.
I thought my horse responded to voice cues, but now Sarah you have convinced me that maybe he doesnt, I am dying to put it to the test now.
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