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Post by troop on Dec 30, 2009 17:03:54 GMT 1
ooo a new one whats it called please??
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 30, 2009 17:06:51 GMT 1
just trying to find Gerd Heuschmann's books...think cheapest is amazon??
I too was amazed and loved Anja Beran....to watch how light hands & rein contact are and the fluidity of the movements....somebody teach me please!!
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Post by K8 on Dec 30, 2009 17:09:03 GMT 1
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Post by troop on Dec 30, 2009 17:13:14 GMT 1
ooo got it its great but just nosed on amazon and found 2 more ...... need to save up now xx
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Post by lisap on Dec 30, 2009 20:56:39 GMT 1
Some interesting 'threads' on this thread!
1. Bitless/bridleless/saddleless. Those who choose to train their horses at liberty are pursuing a discipline in itself, in the same way that those who choose to ride sidesaddle, or drive horses or event are pursuing their own disciplines. They shouldn't be compared either favourably or adversely with horses ridden wearing tack, and vice versa.
2. Classical versus competitive dressage. The fact that we have reached a divergance at this point in history is interesting. In years gone past there was no such divergance. Dressage simply means 'schooling' and a dressage Test was just that, a test of where the horse had reached in its individual stage of schooling.
In my opinion, the divergance has been caused by the fact that the superb breeding programmes in Germany and the Netherlands have produced such incredibly naturally talented horses that modern dressage has become first,a showcase for those horses with the best natural paces, and now a showcase for magnificent natural paces 'enhanced' and 'improved' to the point where the horse no longer has matched sets of diagonals.
Those horses with good, but not exceptional gaits, but with high levels of training are always going to be at a disadvantage against exceptionally gaited horses. What we would hope to see is these wonderful horses being trained using methods that work with the horse leading to a long, healthy and injury-free life for the horse. Unfortunately, these methods take time in that they consider the age and maturity of the horse, and these days in modern competitive dressage, time = money.
3. Totilas is an incredible horse, but I agree with JennyB in that it saddens me to think that this animal is very likely to have a short career ending prematurely in lameness simply because of his amazing talent being stretched and stretched up to and beyond what his limbs will stand. Still, he will have a superb and very lucrative (for his owners) career as a standing stallion post competition.
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Post by donnalex on Dec 30, 2009 21:08:14 GMT 1
Some points of interest for this thread. Anyone who uses a pessoa type training aid is training in the long and low or rollkur position or are they not? The exaggerated movement in trot that these horses show are very eye catching as is the spanish walk which is practised by many classical people. Whats the difference? Why admire one and slate the other? Discuss?
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Post by jennyb on Dec 30, 2009 22:10:39 GMT 1
Long and low and rollkur are two completely different things. A pessoa can encourage a horse to stretch down, unfortunately it also seems to encourage some curl backwards too. Even so, that is a world away from rollkur. Spanish walk should only ever be done for short periods, and it really helps to get more movement from the shoulders for movements such as passage. Spanish walk could be harmful if it was practised to excess, or as an aim in itself. Same as anything in horse training really, it's about getting a balance and bearing in mind the biomechanics of the horse. But for me, the main difference is that you don't need force to train a nice spanish walk. Done correctly, it enhances the gaits and quite often horses see it as fun and enjoy doing it. The "show trot" prevalent in dressage is often achieved by shortening the neck and placing the head deep and behind the vertical. This disturbs the natural symmetry of the gaits and throws the horse onto his forehand (yes, lots of GP horses are on the forehand!!), as well as having a major physical detriment to the horse. Again, I refer back to Gerd H's book, but it really all is in there! About how the short neck leads to a lack of pull on the nuchal ligament, and therefore does not in turn engage the supraspinous ligament, which means the natural support system is lost. The longissimus dorsi then becomes a supporting muscle, under constant tension, instead of it's proper function as a locomotor muscle, contracting and relaxing rhythmically. It can't be a supporting muscle without causing pain and poor posture elsewhere, that is not it's natural function! The short, overbent neck also flattens the back and locks out the stifle, completely preventing flexion of the whole haunches, which explains the appearance of many GP horses as hollow in the back, not engaged through the haunches and on the forehand. So, the show trot invariably ruins the gaits (some would say enhance, I say ruin ) and does not develop the horse correctly. The spanish walk done correctly can enhance the gaits and can be done without any detriment to the physical state of the horse or the gaits.
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jol
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,216
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Post by jol on Dec 30, 2009 22:11:52 GMT 1
Long and low is entirely different to Rolkur, in fact they are almost opposites.
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jol
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,216
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Post by jol on Dec 30, 2009 22:13:07 GMT 1
oops, cross posted with jennyb's rather more adequte post!!
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Post by mandal on Dec 30, 2009 23:51:49 GMT 1
Not to mention the probable interference with air intake in an over bent neck at the poll (which points to the trachea collapsing when bent). If some research is correct why would a rider wish to reduce air intake in a horse performing strenuous exercise?? Mta... better add this link and there is another link on my last post in Heathers thread in the hall of fame. www.dressagedisgrace.com/horses-not-breathingI still cannot get over this and tbh for me if this is a real possibility, a horse not being put behind the vertical (for more than seconds at a time) is a no brainer!!!
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Post by donnalex on Dec 31, 2009 9:49:43 GMT 1
Im no fan of rollkur, Ive said so in the past, many times. Just think that rollkur and use of pessoa and spanish walk and flamboyant trot can be compared and likened to each other by some people and can be confusing. Also I heard a clip on Youtube that stated that the trachea is a very solid pipe that would be really hard to squash and that if they were having their intake limited they would not go forward. Edward Gal and Co probably have some very good explanations to validate their methods. It is all very confusing for people. And the dressage judges have to judge what is in the ring at the time. They should not take into account the training methods used at home. Thats competition for you, they are judged on the day. If the horse is not overbent in the ring thats that. Personally I think the horse looks a little short in the neck, I know its not a showing class but thats my criticism of him. But I do love the fact that as a stallion he can go from good collection to extended paces and back again without a swish of his tail or his ears and down to a free walk and stretch down and back again in a totally electric manic atmosphere where everyone is going crazy, surely that has to get his rider and trainer some credit? And walk out the ring under control of the seat alone from what I can make out? How do the critics explain that?
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Post by jennyb on Dec 31, 2009 10:41:05 GMT 1
Donnalex - I have said several times that the purity of the gaits is the issue here, not the calmness and obedience of the horse, which I agree is exemplary. Dressage is not just about submission and acceptance of the aids though, the FEI are not adhering to their own guidelines in highly rewarding a horse with impure gaits and a short neck. In extensions there is supposed to be a lengthening of the *whole frame*, not just a flinging of the front legs. I can only say again - read Gerd H's book, understand more about biomechanics and gait irregularities and you will understand why people are so upset about Totilas
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Post by donnalex on Dec 31, 2009 11:32:08 GMT 1
I know what you are on about jennyb and I agree with you on some points but slating a horse that has lots of good qualities and is at the top of his field does not win people round. It just looks like sour grapes. The way to win people over and make them think for themselves is not to slag off one that is doing well. Try showing one with the qualities you admire, put up a link to one that is better, say why it is better. Yes there are horses around with more correct paces but are they as willing obedient and trainable?
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Post by jennyb on Dec 31, 2009 12:01:03 GMT 1
You seem to misunderstand me - I am not "slating" a horse, nor am I trying to win people round. The state of dressage does concern me but quite frankly I am too busy to fight a one-woman war against judging standards! I'm quite secure and happy with my views and will share them if people are interested - end of story. If I'm asked a question, I will answer it, that's all. Some people share my views, some people like Totilas - fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Trouble on Dec 31, 2009 12:12:16 GMT 1
I find the videos of him fascinating.....I'm nott yet sure if I like or dislike.
I'm fascinated because he moves like a horse shouldn't move! Like he's in permanent 'circus trick' mode.
To my untrained and amateur eye, he looks like he has the movements naturally, but not yet the strength or stamina to sustain in correctly under saddle, and that he has been pushed to do it anyway 'because he can'
He looks like such a nice personality that he wouldn't object, and yes, will probably end up lame before his time because he's spent his youth trying to please, and the people he's pleasing don't know when to just say thank you, without following on with 'now can you just try a bit more...'
But I do think he's a gorgeous animal.
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