milo
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milo, lily, bob,henry and monty
Posts: 2,704
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Post by milo on Dec 14, 2009 9:21:20 GMT 1
why do we want a horse/horses ? becuase i love everything about them,the smell,the eyes, the soft muzzle not so much the riding now,just being around them makes me smile, the fact that we have our own land made the dissicion to buy three at an auction easier, i didnt think of much except for their sad little faces and very scared little foal,i thought one of them might die before the week was out but i still paid 80 pounds for him because i knew i could give him the love he needed and deserved if even for a short time,he survived and is now the cheekiest little shetland ever and to me that makes him even more special,i dont care if i dont ride them as long as theyre happy, healthy and can live stress free out in the field then i'm happy, some might call me ahorder as i have 5 horses plus another out on loan, but i'm happy and so are they.
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Post by spanisheyes on Dec 14, 2009 14:43:31 GMT 1
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Post by rj on Dec 14, 2009 15:08:50 GMT 1
I spent a day with a (then) ILPH inspector a few years ago, and we drove around his patch checking on reports of abuse (sometimes malicious reports or uninformed) and also looking ar foster homes. He told me about some of the cases he had come across - horrific - & I asked him what sort of person neglected and abused horses. I remember he said 'people just like you & me, my duck, just like you & me'. But there seems to be a type of person who cannot see/acknowledge that what they are doing is wrong, and are able to shut the horses into a shed for instance and forget they exist, while having one or more well looked after outside. When they have the horses taken away they will swear that they love their them & want them back, and if banned will go to extreme lengths (& I heard of a vet in this category) to get others be the 'owners' so they could keep & neglect yet more... Research might be very useful to identify potential problem people, but I don't who would fund it.
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Post by clara81 on Dec 14, 2009 15:30:40 GMT 1
I know quite a few people who have horses purely as a status symbol, usually totally unsuitable breeds such as Arabs or TBs which they cannot handle but I don't think the horses have really suffered as such, even though they don't keep them or treat them in the way I would.
I do know a few though who have horses because they want to be "in with" the gypsies and they are a lot more worrying as they try to keep them and handle them like gypsies but they don't have the generations of experience and knowledge that genuine gypsies have handed down to them. I know a lot of people don't like how gypsies are with their horses but proper gypsies are mostly good horsemen and they do think a lot of their horses and want them to have long useful lives. The wannabes are usually just rough and thoughtless as they want to look hard. You can usually tell the difference! They don't know enough about horse care and then the horses get neglected but they won't sell them because they want to be part of the gypsy culture.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 14, 2009 20:41:56 GMT 1
It's a huge question and, like others who have answered, I could probably write a thesis on it!
I think there are a huge number of different reasons that animals find themselves in cruelty-case conditions. Here are a few...
1) The Christmas present. Bought for Christmas, thrown out or unwanted in New Year. Sadly this still happens and is a massive effect.
2) The Holiday Effect. Owners don't want to pay for kennelling/care when they want to go on holiday, so throw animal out if dog or cat and just leave to their own devises if a horse.
1) and 2) account for the biggest peaks in rescue cases throughout the year. Some pounds even "deep clean" (i.e. PTS en masse) in anticipation of these effects, in order to create room for the dog wardens to bring in animals (which they get paid for accomodating for 7 days, then get to sell or kill).
3) Lost Interest Some owners just lose interest and stop caring, prioritising etc. This is a less dramatic effect, but there area huge number of cases like this.
4) Novelty Value Some people take on animals because they have particularly interesting or attractive colourings and markings. A year ( or just months) down the line, the novelty wears off and this owner becomes type 3).
5) The Spoilt Brat - The owner that wants anything cute or beautiful, but finds they are not prepared to sacrifice their time, effort or money to look after those animals. These owners can be hoarders that have to keep getting new animals for the buzz and excitement. They often pass animals on when the novelty wears off.
6) The Rescuer that doesn't know when to stop This group is sad and I feel sorry for them whilst hating the results. Some rescuers will keep taking on more and more animals in need, way beyond their capacity to pay for their keep and vet treatment. At the other end of the spectrum, there are rescues (normally big ones that are run by accountants!) who are very good at saying no to animals in need and manage to run a financially stable operation - but they often have huge staffing and operational bills and spend a lot of money rescuing not very many animals per £ donated whilst having a high PTS rate. In truth, a huge number of small rescues walk a fine line most of the time between taking on too much and being able to carry on doing so financially. I think sometimes a rescue starts off balancing the books then the situation gradually slips away from them. Once things get out of control, the rescuer will do anything to keep going. They go into denial about how far their domestic standards have slipped and the fact that they may not be providing the care the animals need anymore. They may become secrative and not let anyone in to their house/place because the part of their brain that is still sane knows things are bad, speaks up and becomes defensive.
With individual rescuers, the internal half-halt is often supplied by Other Halves. Mine has a constant job to do! But I also hear of a lot of ladies in rescue who end up divorced or unable to maintain a relationship because it's almost impossible to find a man who is as passionate and committed to rescue.
6) Stallion man I've heard of and met a few men that seem to feel their macho-factor is boosted by owning and "mastering" stallions. The care of and happiness of the stallion sadly can become neglected.
7) Stallion girl Similar macho factor motivation, the need to present an image to others of a very capable horse woman or rider. Sometimes there is a confused cross-gender romance thing going on too that would probably bear some serious pscyhological investigation! Stallion girl is normally after macho or kudos points though.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 14, 2009 21:00:47 GMT 1
I know of a woman who has an interesting pattern. She changes men every few years and has a child with each man. Her kids are 14, 11, 6 and 2. Each child is most interesting when young and becomes increasingly ignored and receives less parenting as they get older.
She also has had a string of animals. So far, I have helped her rehome 2 dogs, a rabbit and a cat. She wanted to have a pony at one point too, but I managed to talk her out of it by going on about the amount of work and expense involved.
I think it likely she will go through life accumulating more children and animals. The animals will get passed on to rescue whenever she gets bored with them. The kids won't be quite so lucky, but at least they get to leave home when they are 16 and can probably manage a few years of independent delinquincy on the run up to that point.
She is enabled to breed so freely because of the benefits system. I don't think she has ever worked and everything is paid for by the tax payer.
I question what would happen in this kind of case if child and housing benefit was not dependent on the number of children a parent has - and if it was socially acceptable to drop your kids off at a rehoming (rescue!) centre when you get bored/lose interest/can't cope/etc.
I think we have some big problems in this country - including loss of moral compass and lack of discipline. Take away the benefits system and I think we will be looking at child neglect on a scale that would match animal negect. Then people would sit up and realise that we have got some things very wrong and lost our way as a society. It is only a tissue-thin layer of social subsidy that is maintaining the illusion that we are decent.
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Post by lizpurlo on Dec 14, 2009 22:08:52 GMT 1
Caroline - interesting and thoughtful posts, especially in your linking of keeping animals and having children. I do think that many people like to think of themselves as 'victims', brought down with the trials of life and the problems of looking after family and animals - a converstion with one of these women usually consists of having to listen to a non-stop stream of moans about their children, OH and animals, and how hard their life is as a result! It all sounds so joyless; and both offspring and animals tend to be just bumping along in a fairly downbeat way. I know two women like this; both would tell you how much they love their horses (if not their kids!) but both groups of horses have a depressed and neglected air about them.
Horse owners like this appear to be defined by their martyrdom - horse ownership and the trials thereof seems to be necessary in order for them to stay in their comfortable and familiar state of grumbling slavery, if that makes any sense.
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Post by sarahbing on Dec 14, 2009 22:18:03 GMT 1
What an intereseting thread. I think Runningloon made an excellent point about possibly people having been 'let down' at some point, and animals making a substitute as they are so dependant on us for their basic needs, so can't 'let us down' A couple of life experiences may help. First, a friend from Uni who hadn't had the happiest of childhoods, who first aquired a kitten, then later a baby, just so, in her words, she could 'have something to love her..' In neither case were they negelcted, she made an excellent owner/parent fortunately, but the motivation may explain some peoples' need to acquire animals ie something that loves them unconditionally. They often have neither the skills nor the desire to care and love in return? Second, when we bought our house here, the land had been rented by a lady who had lost her husband in a plane crash. She had gone on to 'rescue' a number of horses, which resulted in them breeding indiscriminately, along with further acquisitions she now had over 200 small ponies. She also rescued cats and bred dogs. Her life was in chaos. She probably had the best intentions but had no reasonable hope of caring for such a huge number of animals. She was prosecuted by the RSPCA, but, to the best of my knowledge, continues to collect and neglect. Do you think this could be a form of 'breakdown' in response to a traumatic event and the hoarding of animals symptomatic of an underlying phsycological problem? If so, would treatment be a more effective deterrent ( to stop them repeating this pattern of behaviour and to protect animals from them in the future) than prosecution? I think the welfare officer in this thread is very enlightened to look at this with such an enquiring mind..
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Jane
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Colo ("koala")
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Post by Jane on Dec 15, 2009 11:11:38 GMT 1
"Let down ... substitutes" for earlier childhood or adult deficiencies or losses... this sounds like addiction then, with the 'hit' being the pleasurable point of purchase and acquisition, rather the subsequent keeping of the animals? But there's no reality check later on, because to do that would be to recognise and admit to the addictive behaviour that had started it all off??
"I have seen horses as well as other animals used as a kind of ' munchusens by proxy' type scenerio..... " This actually makes me think of some people who have, at times, appeared on the IHDG. Full of ongoing tales of difficulty and woe, but when other DG-ers have actually offered to go round and physically help them, they have suddenly gone silent and not taken the offers up. Almost a transference pattern, in that they want help themselves, but use the animals in order to express it to others.
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Post by sarahbing on Dec 15, 2009 11:21:11 GMT 1
I think you are spot on Jane about the point of pleasure being the acquisition of the animal/child, with no thought for the future input required. These people can then 'blame' their acquisition for keeping them in a circle of negativity - it may be a fear of failure - they don't want help to move forward in case they fail in the 'real world'
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js
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'Tilly' - 1981 - 2010. Always In My Heart
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Post by js on Dec 15, 2009 11:45:02 GMT 1
I have a 'friend' who collects animals too. And I know exactly why she does it. She seems to get a real 'high/buzz' when she gets a new one. She loves all the attention she lavishes on it, and loves all the attention she gets lavished on her for having a new puppy, kitten, pony etc. Trouble is once the high/buzz and attention starts to wear off, so does the novelty of the new animal and she then needs another hit. And so the cycle continues............ The problem I can see is that in some cases they are 'rescues', but who needs rescuing more ? There is no doubt some deep psychological need going on, but can you ever tell these people that actually, they may need help.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 15, 2009 12:14:36 GMT 1
"I have seen horses as well as other animals used as a kind of ' munchusens by proxy' type scenerio..... " This actually makes me think of some people who have, at times, appeared on the IHDG. Full of ongoing tales of difficulty and woe, but when other DG-ers have actually offered to go round and physically help them, they have suddenly gone silent and not taken the offers up. I think this is a valid comment. I wonder why we see more MBP cases with horse owners than dog owners? I don't think I have ever seen the serial-problem-havers with dogs that we see with horses. Is it because dogs are easier to train or because they share our houses and we can't afford to generate problems we can't live with? I noticed a little while back that some people always seem to have a problem with their horse and will either have the same problem with every horse they have or will have a string of problems with the same horse. In the former case, I think it is a matter of the owner causing the same problem in every horse they have. But when they manage to find a string of problems in the same horse, I think we are either looking at MBP or someone that is just looking for problems. I think a lot of us can learn something from that. If we look for problems, we will find them. If we are disposed to be happy with our horses, I suspect we find fewer problems. I notice that some people seem to have problems in every job they take, in every relationship they are in and with every person they know. I wonder if there is something similar going on with horse owners - no sooner do they solve one problem than they become dissatisfied about something else! And maybe people only get attention if they present a situation as a problem. As a community, perhaps we would generate fewer problems if we helped people gently find the next step before things become problems.
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Post by KimT on Dec 15, 2009 13:45:16 GMT 1
I have just started reading this and 'wow'. i have to agree with a lot that has been said.
I think there the 'hoarding' could be down to these people not getting what they need from the horses (hear me out i promise i will make sense).
I think that some 'non horsey people' view horses as 'big dogs'. they are cute and cuddly and you can hug them and they will love you no matter what.
the actual truth that horses are such a big part of your life and a lot of the time they tell you to 'get stuffed' doesnt live up to the dream. they then get left in the field because you put in all the effort and dont get much in return. especially cute little ponies e.g. shetlands
of course us 'horsey people' dont have this view. we see the benefits where other wouldnt and we dont look for the 'puppy dog love'. we look for haapiness and acceptence of us in as natural a way to the horse as possible.
i believe that there are far more reasons than this for the hoarding we see but many of the points have been mentioned so i just thought i would add this one.
-x-
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Post by wendyihts on Dec 15, 2009 14:45:02 GMT 1
Sorry I must have missed it - is there some data confirming that?
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Post by Emily+Meg on Dec 15, 2009 14:49:57 GMT 1
This is an interesting thread. There is certainly a buzz of excitement that comes from looking for and buying a new horse. Im sure Im not the only one that scans the ad at the back of h+h, imagining which ones you might go to see.
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