Okehampton Demo, full story of Woody!!

[dptc]

I am not fond of things like the buckstopper normally, or any other "gadget" which really stops a problem without getting to the bottom of the issue first but have to agree in instances like Woody's when it is the last resort and it is used in the correct hands it is the right thing to do. What worries me is someone seeing it and deciding to use one on their horse or pony without any fore thought and training which sadly happens far too often, can you imagine someone using it on horse that bucks because it has back issues.... It's a shame there isn't a way to ensure someone is educated before use!

[Zoe RA]

Dptc, unfortunately there is nothing to stop anybody "having a go" at anything they see either at a demo, or on the internet etc.

I once had an owner ask me to put a buck stopper on her horse because he bucked if he didn't have enough exercise

Needless to say, to cut a longish story short, I absolutely refused!

[heather]

Any 'gadget' can be used wrongly, dptc, be it a bit, spurs, whips, and are used wrongly very commonly, when in fact, used correctly they are not in any way, a punishment.

But with the buckstopper, I truly think that few people would ever use it who see it at a Monty demo- the type of people who are at the demos, I am certain are genuine horselovers in the main, or they wouldnt be there in the first place.

Also few would want to tackle a real bucker, and would be too scared to even try. So I actually think the buckstopper is one gadget that is unlikely to cause many problems in the wrong hands- now draw reins and rollkur, as so many riders try to copy the top dressage riders, that is far and away more likely to be causing widespread pain and potential damage imo!

Heather

[dptc]

I didn't intend to "diss" the buckstopper I did mean all gadgets as you say including draw reins etc, just using it as an example of one of many things that sadly in the wrong hands could cause further issues, and I wasn't suggesting any one at the demo would do that, the thought in my head was that I had actually seen a Buckstop for sale in the Robinsons catalogue a few weeks previously and can just imagine people buying it thinking it will fix their problem without thinking further as to the whys! It's a shame these things can't come with a RA attached to them :-)

[tess1]

there are a few things I am struggling to get my head round here...

First off thank the Lord, and Heather and Monty that Woody is going to be allowed to live ....

But ....

Heather begins the post by saying Woody would have had a bullet in his head on Wednesday if a solution hadn't been found to his bucking problem. Monty also announces this at the demo - but Heather then admits (in a post here) that she would have had Woody at her yard - so maybe it wasn't curtains for him just yet, and he was going to be given a bit more time to allow people to get to the bottom of his problems.

Heather admits to Jamesb that there was a strong possibility that Woody was suffering from ulcers. It appears that Monty was also aware of this possibility. However, both Heather and Monty are comfortable with allowing the horse to perform some serious gymnastics when saddled, followed by using a buckstopper - with the full knowledge that the horse's behaviour could well be attributed to pain.

I would agree that a pink mark on the gum is better than a hole in the head. But I would think it infinately preferable that all possibilities of pain are explored before a gadget is used which, as someone has already pointed out only deals with the symptoms, and not the cause of the behaviour.

If Woody had been previously tested for ulcers and the tests proved negative, then I apologise in advance for this post, but that is not how I'd interpreted Heather's answer to Jamesb.

I would just like someone to clarify for me why a horse, with some very serious behavioural issues, was used in a demo when it is apparent from the information shared here that at least two very knowledgable people discussed the possibility that the behaviour was possibly stemming from ulcers. We all know, from Trouble's posts, the importance of the correct diagnosis, medical management and remedial training for this kind of condition before there can be any expectation of improvement - I doubt that Trouble would have made the strides she has with Snip today had she resorted to a demo and a buckstopper (Trouble, I hope you do not mind being used as an example here, but it is through your posts that I have gained some knowledge about ulcers and how they can affect behaviour).

modified to add 'about' in the last sentence.

[dptc]

I was slightly concerned at the time when it was said the horse was booked in for Potters on Weds if there is no solution, only because Monty working with the horse once would not solve the issues and it's very unlikely by Weds a full solution would be found, following the demo time would need to be taken to work on the horse to get it right using the relevant methods learned, as is often stressed to all participants, so the owner could not expect to have it right by Weds! Often things like that are said to get across the desperation of the owners and I hope that it wouldn't have gone Weds if Dan hadn't taken him on and it was just a show of desperation as otherwise what was the point of the demo other than to sell him on! I was pleased Kelly stressed a couple of times that not just any one could take on a horse like that, and would like to think if any one had stepped forward other than the likes of Dan the IH would have been responsible in ensuring the experience of that home is fully checked - not really their responsibility but as they advertised the horse hopefully they would have done the right thing by doing this - the last thing you want is IH advertising problem horses who then end up in the wrong hands!!

The youngster Kelly worked on at the very beginning was also for sale, I got a feeling the horse was there to be sold with the fact Kelly worked on him helping the sale!! I have never been to a demonstration before and I did thoroughly enjoy it but the one thing that did shock me overall was the fact that 2 of the horses were for sale and I hope people aren't trying to get their horses in as a way of selling them!

[kt with Hanni]

What a lovely ending! I've just come back from Hartpury demo and Monty was telling us about Woody which had been saved and given a new home. He was telling us about Woody's incredible buck also! :-)

[tess1]

Well, Woody's incredible buck certainly does seem to have made an impression. It will certainly look spectacular on H&C TV.

[heather]

dptc,

Had anyone other than Dan, who was the very person I hoped and prayed would take him on, stepped forwards, I would have personally checked the home and the persons ability, living down here.

I had no intentions whatsoever of having Woody here at my yard, I have no yard manager atm, and am under huge pressure myself with the workload of the stable work added to my usual schedule, but I had not actually seen Woody before, and was so impressed by his ability and the fact that he appears to be a sweet horse in the stable, I felt that I could not let him die on Wednesday if I could have had him here to buy more time to find him a home.

I was told about him close on a month ago, and at the time he was booked in for Potters two weeks hence. I had so much on, I did not think about it again until I spoke to my friend a couple of days before he was due to go to Potters, and I got him a reprieve until I had spoken to Kelly and ascertained as to whether he could be helped at the demo.

A horse like this, could never, ever have been allowed to fall into inexperienced hands, and neither the IH team, nor I, would have permitted it to happen. The owner is an experienced and qualified person herself, and she was only having him put down to ensure that he would not be passed on to another person to injure them badly, and then be put down anyway. It was the responsible action to take, although it may have seemed harsh, but I felt that he deserved another chance, which Dan has now given him. It will be very interesting to follow his story.

Heather

[heather]

Tess, no he hadnt been tested for ulcers, but I have had experience with horses with ulcers and I have never seen any horse with them- many top competition horses suffer with them- buck in this manner before. I cannot believe that ulcers- which I have suffered from myself- would cause bucking of this magnitude, to be honest.


Heather

[Ally S]

Tess, I do hear what you're saying. However, that horse if Heather had not got him to the demo would have been at the abbatoir on Wednesday. He was booked in. The owners had made it clear that if Monty couldn't help him, he would go. The horse was not in great shape - something very bad has happened at some point, but we have no idea what. Monty 'thought' he may be suffering with colonic ulcers. This will need a vet to check into, and no doubt Dan will do that. However, as Heather says, while the ulcers will be troubling him, none of us have ever known a horse buck like that due to colonic ulcers. Sue Palmer, a highly qualified physio checked him over and could find nothing physically wrong with him in a muscular/structural way. So what was Monty to do? Refuse to work with him until he'd been vet checked? Too late, he'd have been dead! So good for him, he got on with the job and he did a great job. Woody's bucks when the saddle first went on were spectacular - and not in an entertaining 'wow isn't that fun to watch' way - it was distressing to see such a wonderful horse react so much to a light jockey saddle that could not have hurt him at all. Something dreadful has happened to that boy at some point. He did settle, and he did eventually relax with Adrian on board. Heather puts it superbly when she says it was the bullet or the buckstopper. When Monty announced that Dan was taking him I burst into tears. Dan is exactly what Woody needs! Dan would not have done that had he not seen the horse and the work Monty had done. Dan will get him sorted physically, but for his own safety will continue riding in the buckstopper, and in his shoes I would do the same.

The outcome was wonderful for this horse. So before anyone else questions why Monty worked with a horse which possibly did have an underlying problem such as ulcers, please just accept that the other option was that in three days time Woody would be gone.

Seeing Woody and what happened on Friday did bring home some harsh realities. Woody has had a bad time, but his luck has changed because of a team of superb horsemen and women which includes Heather, Kelly, Monty, Dan and the team. 'Work with what you've got' - it's a great saying, and with Woody what we'd got was a horse who's time had very nearly run out!

[dptc]

good to know any possible home would have been checked out thoroughly! It worries me when you see so many horses passed on again and again with problems that can't be handled and had assumed with you behind him and IH that wouldn't be an option so glad you confirmed that! I agree that sometimes when everything has been tried a bullet is better than being passed on yet again, that didn't concern me, it was more that after the demo he only until weds to follow it up wasn't giving him much time. All ended well and well done in finding Woody another chance, I really can't wait to hear how he gets on. He needs his own blog!!

[heather]

Thanks Ally,

I was sitting there praying that Dan would find the challenge too much of a temptation ;D. I dont know where I was when it was announced that Dan was having him, but owners stepmum Di, came over to me to say what a wonderful outcome. 'Er....... what wonderful outcome'? 'Dan having him, of course!!'. I confess to squealing loudly and hugged Di to the point of nearly squashing her!!

Woody had been skin and bone when Abi bought him, and he has improved considerably since, but I think that he does indeed need scoping for ulcers, although colonic ulcers would not show up anyway. We have no gastroscope down here either, we have to have Richard Hepburn all the way down from Willesley Equine practice in Glos.

Heather


Heather

[jamesb]

Ooops! Perhaps I should have kept quiet... ;D All I was doing was commenting on something specific I had noticed, being a layman.

However Ally S is quite right on 2 counts - firstly, that his bucking was a real "OMFG" moment as opposed to a "Wow, what an athlete" moment. And secondly, I asked the people sat around me whether they felt that, despite Monty's efforts, he would still keep his appointment on Wednesday. All agreed that in all probability he would, given the depth and severity of his problems. With Dan's intervention that will not now happen and I wish him all the best in rehabilitating this magnificent animal.

[heather]

I am going to contact Dan and ask him to send me updates. I truly think that Woody is an extremely talented horse, and as long as he truly has no physical problems, I am certain Dan will have a horse of a lifetime there.

Some members of my own forum have questioned as to why he was not checked out by a top veterinary hospital with all the massively expensive equipment first, to ensure that he hasnt any really deep seated physiological problem, but the owner hadnt the several thousand pounds to hand in order to get this done.

He is not lame and had just passed a five stage vetting a couple of months before, and I cannot see an insurance company paying out for vets fees as they would consider this a behavioural problem.

So what was I to do? Let him go to Potters on Wednesday? As I said, had a suitable home not come up for him, although prior to the demo, I had no intention of having him here, having seen him, and the obvious talent he has, I decided that night, that would have had him here, and had I not been able to find someone sufficiently experienced and skilled to take him on, he would then have been put down here at home. No way he would ever have been passed on.

But had I not been there and actually seen him, at the demo, I would not have made this decision, and he would have had a bullet on Wednesday.

I still believe I did the right thing by this horse, as I know that Dan would never pass him on either if Woody proved to have an incurable physiological problem, but at least, we now has a stay of execution, and time to investigate and hopefully rectify any problems.

Heather