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Post by arabheaven on Aug 28, 2008 13:45:06 GMT 1
Back from amanda sutton's this morning, we were there for about 2hours. She did an assessment, then I free schooled Zac (no I dont 'do' lunging I'm afraid, he did some lovely araby trot round the school showing off to mares, WISH I had taken my camera!! He walk, trot and cantered on voice command on each rein, I was very proud mummy ;D amanda calls him her 'special, handsome boy' as he reminds her of her first arab  always helps hehe! he then was very well behaved when she re-assessed, did some electro therapy and massage. I have a booklet full of exercises for in hand or long lining, a massage ball to go over him with daily, have to go into vets for an assessment (flexion tests etc) next week and amada wants to see him again in 2weeks. She mentioned insurance claim so thinks it's gonna be a while yet. Cost me £150 for blood tests, £94 initial consultation and £70.50 today so far, plus vet next week and ongoing physio, ouch! Basically he goes off disunited on left lead canter and is still tight but correct on right rein. He is tight in his quarters in walk as though he is walking on nails and in rein back instead of lifting his tummy and stepping under him, he shuffles and tenses as though he is walking uphill. 5m circles ont he right he finds hard and is less mobile through the left side. Her diagnosis is 'fasiculation response right back, spasm right wither, superficial gluteal biceps ferioris (can't read that word!) adhesions, chronic thickening left atlas, reduced hindleg reach backwards. On forelimb mobility testing reacts behind, stems from tension through frame. At walk abnormal stifle-hip mobility, improved palpatory feel of neck and back, conter on soft left rein disunites behind. Right 5m circle short tunrs, less mobile through left side neck and body. Vet evaluation for coexisting condition.' Horses eh? To think he has done so well at trailblazers for me feeling like this   |
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Post by wendyihts on Aug 28, 2008 13:52:36 GMT 1
Why does she think he's like this?
I'd be tempted to look into start him on the EPSM diet while you work through all this, see if it helps anything.
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Post by arabheaven on Aug 28, 2008 14:05:12 GMT 1
she is very sure it is linked to his tying up end of may and that recently going shoeless (4 weeks ago) may have been the final trigger to displaying the symptoms as he now HAS to carry himself differently and he can obviously feel his feet underneath him much more than he could before
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Post by wendyihts on Aug 28, 2008 14:32:44 GMT 1
In that case, I'd really recommend getting on to Dr Beth Valentine and investigating the possibility of EPSM as it can be an underlying condition associated with tying up.
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Post by arabheaven on Aug 28, 2008 20:10:52 GMT 1
never heard of it, he tied up i am certain due to a change in his diet (i put him onto a higher starch mix, he tied up, i took him straight off) he is now on just fast fibre, dengie hifi and pink powder x
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Post by arabheaven on Aug 28, 2008 20:19:22 GMT 1
have done some quick reading, seems to be more prevalent in large draught horses? I am also not convinced he has that, I think it is related to the tying up incident because EPSM is a genetic thing so it would surely have shown way before now? he is 7 now.
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Post by jen1 on Aug 28, 2008 22:07:24 GMT 1
In that case, I'd really recommend getting on to Dr Beth Valentine and investigating the possibility of EPSM as it can be an underlying condition associated with tying up. hi Wendy and sorry or butting in ah, i wonder if you could pm me more about the subject and the lady you mentioned, ah looks like you have a long and pondering rd to go down, feet and the like i can associate with espm i don't know much about, some of the horses here have changed in shape hugley sice they began barefoot, some not always for the better just npw, but its coming and we will get there, this is what i thought but the more i think about it id like to explore the espm thing |
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Post by fin on Aug 28, 2008 22:23:11 GMT 1
We got JJ when he was 7, and a combination of lack of exercise from having laminitis and going shoeless kicked off what we now think is EPSM. It's genetic, yes, but it's known in plenty of other breeds as well as draft horses--plenty of horses have the genetic blueprint but for whatever reasons don't develop symptoms for years, if at all. And since it's a glycogen storage/ultilisation problem, it can definately be triggered by a higher starch diet (in JJ's case tiny amounts of sugars and starches start him stiffening up), plus obviously, tying up is a pretty major symptom of the condition. Obviously there are other conditions associated with tying up and muscle damage, but EPSM is definately one to investigate if only to rule it out  Unfortunately the only reliable diagnostic is a muscle biopsy, but switching to an oil diet for the next four months or so could also act as a diagnostic--it's what we're doing with JJ ATM and so far, it looks like we may have the last bit of the puzzle falling into place  |
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Post by wendyihts on Aug 29, 2008 10:34:26 GMT 1
I mention it as well because the sooner it's ruled out for sure, the better. It's easy to deal with in that it only requires a diet change over to high oil, low sugar/starch plus regular exercise. Lutine is a full Anglo Arab, virtually 50/50 TB to Arab blood, and her symptoms were also around hindquarter stiffness, neck stiffness and being disunited in canter. The sooner the high oil diet is started, the less damaging polysaccharides are built up in the muscles and the quicker the horse gets back on track. Almost any horse can be given the high oil diet without being compromised and if you get a rapid alleviation of the muscle issues and an alleviation of other symptoms, well, so much the better. The horse carries on on the diet and the owner pays a bit more attention to slower warm ups and warm downs and there you go. But the reason why Lutine has ongoing problems is that this condition was left for far too long without being addressed and so her muscles were badly damaged in the process. I know that Dr Beth recently advised someone with a EPSM suspect horse to start him on half the recommended oil plus the reduction in sugars/starches (and you need to ensure they get the right amount of Vit E and selenium too) and if she saw an improvement to put the horse on the full amount of oil and carry on. But the best thing would be to contact her direct.
It's not that mainly drafts are affected by EPSM. It's that within the draft population there's a greater proportion affected than with other breeds, but other breeds including QHs, arabians, warmbloods and TBs are also affected. It seems that we've bred this 'special metabolism' into our domestic horse population as we've bred for more performance in various forms.
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Post by arabheaven on Aug 29, 2008 10:41:51 GMT 1
thanks guys, unfortuanately he can't be in work at the moment though, he is only allowed to do in hand exercises in walk over poles, stretches and massage, would that be a problem? do you have her email address at all wendy?
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Post by arabmania on Aug 29, 2008 10:59:49 GMT 1
i would stay on the side of caution at the mo toni. dont add anything extra to his diet until you have had an assessment done by the vet. ask the vet and amanda sutton their opinion. he may just benefit from adding magnesium but again i would stay on the side of caution until things are ruled out.
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Post by arabheaven on Aug 29, 2008 11:07:55 GMT 1
found an email for her and have emailed her. I am a bit confused though, surely if EPSM is glycogen problems i.e being able to digest starch, i assume, then I don't understand how feeding them oil (lipids) helps this? can anyone explain?  x |
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Post by fin on Aug 30, 2008 7:56:41 GMT 1
I'm not sure there's any agreement on how the mechanism works. Possibly oil bypasses the insulin response. EPSM horses can be insulin sensitive (although not all, because JJ provably isn't). The starch is digested OK, it's just that when it's converted to animal starch in the muscle, the sugars are converted to other polysaccharides rather than glycogen proper--a different molecular chain. This can't be adequately broken down to fuel the muscle (hence tying up), and the byproducts also cause muscle damage (bit like happens in diabetes I suppose). Oil however is metabolised differently and fuels the muscle differently, but it takes a good few months for the body to become efficient at burning fat for fuel--human ultra runners often train for this, because actually it's a much better mechanism for protacted exercise. Course, if you poke around on the web you'll find about 10 possible reasons why oil works and starch and sugar doesn't, but general agreement that 20% of calories from fat seems to do the trick. Exercise--all we're doing is walking out in hand for about half a mile, since it's all the horse can cope with ATM, so I'd have thought what you're doing with Zac would be fine. You can get EPSM diagnosed by biopsy, though it's not 100% reliable. There's a new genetic test available in the US, too, but that would involve flying a blood and hair sample out overnight...might be worth looking into if you can get your vet on board. We decided a diagnostic diet was easier, since it's a perfectly OK diet for all horses anyhow |
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Post by Emily+Meg on Aug 30, 2008 8:58:37 GMT 1
Aww Toni Thinking of you, I know how you feel |
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Post by arabheaven on Aug 30, 2008 12:41:59 GMT 1
thanks emily, we need a 'i should be riding my horse' campaign finn and wendy - thanks so much, have been in touch with Beth and she has emailed amanda (physio) to suggest it to her and see what she says because amanda has said massage, stretches and walk in hand only whereas Beth has advised long hack sunder saddle to get the muscle regenrating and to get the fat utilisation process going, which she has said allow 4-5 months for. Will see what vet thinks on tues |
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always helps hehe! he then was very well behaved when she re-assessed, did some electro therapy and massage.
Unfortunately the only reliable diagnostic is a muscle biopsy, but switching to an oil diet for the next four months or so could also act as a diagnostic--it's what we're doing with JJ ATM and so far, it looks like we may have the last bit of the puzzle falling into place 
x
