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Post by fin on Aug 9, 2008 22:51:50 GMT 1
As most of you know by now, JJ has a long history of laminitis and we now also suspect he has EPSM--a condition the causes muscle stiffness. It's treated generally with a high oil, low sugar diet. This is him before the diet:  And three weeks in:  Any thoughts? |
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laura
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Post by laura on Aug 9, 2008 23:42:47 GMT 1
these are the first vids I seen of JJ ....... and even at this late in the day eeermm night ...... I ca certainly say he does seem a tadge looser  diet looks like its working ;D |
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Post by jen1 on Aug 10, 2008 14:18:45 GMT 1
mm its so very hard to tell if your not used to seeing him, the one thing that sprung to mind while watching the first vid, that he seemed to be harder in the muscle on his rump on the right, but seems a lot more free in that area, my computer wont play them consistently enough for me to watch them without interruption, he certainly looks brighter in the second,
be better as a comparison to have seen him walking free on both vids,
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Post by fin on Aug 10, 2008 21:57:22 GMT 1
He was free on both vids I think, we're too lazy to put a headcollar on!  He has definately stiffened up more today--he was pretty evil too--probably because there was so much rain yesterday and he stabled himself and didn't move enough. Blasted horse  Interestingly today it was his right shoulder that was sore  Up at 5.50 tomorrow to make SURE he gets some exercise I think, twice if necessary |
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Azrael
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Post by Azrael on Aug 11, 2008 0:05:45 GMT 1
He does look looser and more relaxed in the second video, seems to be bending his hocks more in trot in the second vid. The stiff movement on his back legs seem similar to what Mia used to do before starting to have oil.
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Aug 11, 2008 11:14:14 GMT 1
Does he always run around 5 legged? Hehe. I think he does look less stiff on the second video  |
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Post by fin on Aug 12, 2008 12:20:00 GMT 1
Always five legs when there's a possibility of food! He's loosened up a bit mre now, which is good. Still a long way to go on the hinds tho Mel, has Mia got EPSM? It's very common in warmbloods I wonder if it actually causes gut issues as well--logically if it affects muscle it might well affect movement of food through the stomach and the gut? EPSM horses are colic prone too so I'm wondering if a lot of JJ's digestive issues aren't EPSM related. |
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Aug 12, 2008 12:39:18 GMT 1
Do you know if it is confined to skeletal muscles? If not technically it could affect gut peristalsis, but I thought it only mainly affected skeletal muscle. If I remember right skeletal muscles are wired up a bit differently to smooth muscle.
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Post by Zuzan on Aug 12, 2008 12:47:53 GMT 1
EPSM is circulatory isn't it.. ? In humans when we eat the blood gets pumped to the stomach to aid hence we often feel sleepy after food... well eating too much ..... as the circulation concentrates efforts to the stomach muscles... ?
Is it that the circulation required by the stomach in an EPSM horse is diverting the blood to the extent it causes a problem in the skeletal muscles? ..
by using a high oil content diet.. which is slow to absorb / digest does this effectively lessen the diversion of blood away from the skeletal muscles..?
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Aug 12, 2008 13:06:49 GMT 1
It's not circulation - more innervation that is involved in diverting blood supply to various places:
Sympathetic (Generally stimulatory) is Fight or Flight
Parasympathetic is Rest and Digest.
As such I think EPSM Pathogenesis is unknown.
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Azrael
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Post by Azrael on Aug 12, 2008 17:23:49 GMT 1
I'm pretty sure Mia has EPSM but i haven't had the vet out to test for it. Two vets have seen her, first suspected wobblers but then decided she was just weak behind (I doubt a horse that can swat flies off her head with a back leg that accurately could have wobblers anyway!) and to see how it goes for a while, which is when I read about EPSM and decided to try the diet. Other vet came out when her stifle locked badly, fortunatly doesn't lock badly ever anymore, but it was That Vet and was less than helpful about there being anything other than just a plain locked stifle going on. Since the oil is helping and she's pretty difficult for the vet I've decided not to get her tested for now. She's been a bit stiff on her back end and dragged her back toes since she was 2 1/2, difficult to put muscle on since I've known her and her stifle locks sometimes, she's not got conformation that's prone to locking stifle at all and it just doesn't behave quite like one of those 'grow out of it' ones. The winter I decided to try the oil she was even dragging her fronts and wearing the toes down. She's been on oil for over 18 months apart from the occasional break and is better when she's on it. I went away for a week last month and decided to not get anyone to feed while i was away partly just to see if the oil really was doing something and came back to stiffer pony with stifle locking a bit. So far she's just been having a bit of oil rather than a proper EPSM diet so I'm going to try doing it a bit more properly for a while now and see if that's even better. Mia has had gut issues as well but being starved over winter as a youngster  would account for starting that off and despite all this she doesn't 'do' laminitis/LGL apart from if she has antibiotics or alfalfa and even then its only a bit of barely noticeable LGL. |
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Post by fin on Aug 12, 2008 20:20:49 GMT 1
I also thought EPSM was confined to skeletal muscle, but there seem to be so many reports of EPSM horses with colic or colic like symptoms that I have begun to wonder. As far as I know there isn't really a circulatory aspect to EPSM--it's abnormal storage of polysaccharide rather than glycogen in the muscle, which of course can't be broken down to power movement. This leads to muscle damage and wastage....in that respect I suppose all muscle might be affected?  But I don't know. I don't know how non-skeletal muscle is fuelled. If it does affect the gut though it would be logical that some of JJ's laminitis might well be realted to the gut issue, tho obviously a sugar/starch challenge would kick off EPSM symptoms as well as laminitis ones I suppose. It'll be interesting to see is there's any noticeable change in JJ's feet IF we can get the muscular issues under control... Definately sounds like JJ's symptoms though--he also drags his toes and his stifle action is more like skating than walking. For a QH he's very scrawny, hard to keep weight on, muscle wastage etc......he's on 550ml oil a day now and though he's rounded out a bit but he hasn't exactly put weight on. Annoyingly the first time That Vet saw him he thought he'd tied up, which in retrospect he probably had, but after he ran an inconclusive muscle enzymes test decided that it couldn't be muscular and was just an Unshod Feet Issue If he'd have pursued the issue a bit further we might have sorted this three years ago |
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Aug 12, 2008 20:32:17 GMT 1
Thinking about it, it must be in both skeletal and smooth as they both contract/relax in the same way, they are just wired differently. I would imagine it just manifests more in the hind quarters as they are big muscles with a lot of scope for damage to occur for polysaccharide build up.
Been doing some reading for my new project and it seems that when a horse has EPSM, IR or Colic the other two are usually lurking as is laminitis if the IR is bad. All points towards metabolic syndrome not disimilar to that found in humans.
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Post by fin on Aug 12, 2008 22:03:19 GMT 1
Yup. Our EP has ME, which is probably why he's especially interested in laminitis and IR--quite a lot of the things we've treated JJ with over the last few years have been the sorts of things folks with ME find beneficial.
It would make sense about glycogen storage in smooth muscle affecting peristalsis, wouldn't it? JJ's affected muscles are mainly shoulders and HQs, but he has huge muscle bulk anyway being a QH so it's bound to be noticeable in other muscles as well as his HQs. Curiously he's also very stiff in his poll and parts of his neck and sometimes also his tail.
Have you got any idea how it's possible to reconcile IR and EPSM? In theory EPSM should be insulin sensitivity, but it seems to be accepted now that horses can be IR and have EPSM too......
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chitori
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Post by chitori on Aug 12, 2008 22:16:00 GMT 1
I will continue reading and see what turns up |
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Interestingly today it was his right shoulder that was sore 
Up at 5.50 tomorrow to make SURE he gets some exercise I think, twice if necessary 
would account for starting that off and despite all this she doesn't 'do' laminitis/LGL apart from if she has antibiotics or alfalfa and even then its only a bit of barely noticeable LGL.
But I don't know. I don't know how non-skeletal muscle is fuelled.